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Thread: Rapid fire method.handing & loading Rifles to your men engaged on the firing line .

  1. #21
    Kilburnblue's Avatar
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    Sir With greatest respect I would like to remind you of an old army adage when on parade Remember that at first it made no sense to me too

    " SJt Mjr "

    " Sir "

    " If that man their moves again I will run him through ,yes you , stand fekin still "

    SJt Mjr spins on his heel raises his fist and begins to mark time, he's identifies you and without a word barges right through the ranks and-smashes you right on the chin,

    You get up with a stagger still holding your bandook all wobble arsed, he's there all red faced fixed eyes starring you to death , you gets your cover on quick dress up and present

    No persentages , no figures, you just all of a sudden like know the OC on Parade and the Sjt Mjr were right and you were wrong

    Best successful attack i ever saw !

    Till the barrage lifts
    Last edited by Kilburnblue; 05-26-2017 at 03:22 AM.

  2. #22
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    Sir
    I can't find words to explain how I would first encourage you to carry on with your obviously very keen interest in the 18th and 19th century wars and campaigns in Europe,North Africa and of course North America
    If I may I'd like to suggest you dispense with your technique of quoting figures and battlefield statistics, there never correct and one should apply the rule of thumb I e study your subject and use your own conclusions , Only use Someone else's work on casualties as an avarage definitely not an absolute factual sequence of events and subsequent statistics, you can claim nothing other than such things are a poor substitute for your own post study educated guesses

    i find an officer who experience the miss representation of soldering says it best, the poor fellow who wrote this was killed a few month before the Great War ended take the time to try and understand the words people don't tell it as it was ,

    till the barrage lifts boy

    Have you forgotten our company our poor men,
    How can you laugh and joke tell the girls how jolly we were back then .
    Let me remind you just in case of when we meet last in that he'll of a place
    l lay Sniping the bosh wounded in no man's land
    you were crying the sergeants brains splashed on your face.
    Have you forgotten
    Last edited by Kilburnblue; 05-26-2017 at 03:54 AM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilburnblue View Post
    soldering

  4. #24

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  5. #25
    First of all this has gone a bit off topic. the topic was whether rifles could be reloaded by people behind the main firing Line during an engagement. well THIS IS ALREADY IN GAME. just drop your rifle and the guy behind you can take it and reload it and then you can take it back and fire it. ta da DONE! if you want sth quicker than this like immediatly giving the rifle to the guy behind you this means that a brand NEW animation, which is also not all that necessary, will have to be implemented and since it wont be so important i guess it wont be included till later in the development.

    Second what you proposed is useless in the attack, at least in most offencive situations. It is mostly useful in defence. Also it was used in the acw in the battle of fredericksburg on marye's heights by confederate troops. BUT there is a reason it was used there. how many people can fire from a wall to a charging enemy? Apparently those WHO are behind the First Line will have a hard time doing so. Those WHO are in front will mostly be able to shoot so it is logical enough for the people behind them to reload their guns for them. This tactic isnt all that useful for a standing unit WHO may be defending but not behind some kind of defending structure like a wall because it obviously slows down the firing rate. It takes time to pass guns from front to the back and vice versa all the time especially under fire from the enemy. The tactic also isnt all that useful for the Weapons we are using at least not in every situation like i have mentioned above. Our guns in game take about 15secs to reload. This is not much. To give an example of the contrary my ancestors WHO fought in the War of Greek Independence of 1821 carried muskets(a kind of them) that were very hard to reload and took a lot of time to do so. So there were many cases where sb else would reload their gun for them while they used another gun.

    Third many minor Civil war battles were very costly as mentioned by many already. Battles that are rarely known like the 2nd battle of Corinth, gaine's mill, glorietta pass(the gettysburg of the far west!), malvern hill and a major battle that gets overlooked soooooo often CHIKAMAUGA. There is no point in saying no to that it is true.

    Fourth though Civil war minor battles were costly that doesnt mean that napoleonic minor fights were not costly. Quite the contrary: i am mentioning 2 battles that i learned about recently 2nd Polotsk and Krasnoi. Few know them but they were costly but still arent considered major. I have limited knowledge on the napoleonic warfare but i know that a lot of minor battles even in the peninsular campaign had High casualty rates. But that in no way undoes the fact that Civil war minor battles were costly as well. After all dead to wounded ratio in the napoleonic wars was much higher than in the acw.

    Fifth about skirmishing i know that in almost if not in every Civil war battle most regiments used picket Lines in front of their main Lines. a notable example is the battle of the fallen timbers where General forrest passed the Union picket Line and fell just by himself on the main Union brigade Line. also if you read about the 33rd alabama regiment(very important reg of the south because one of their privates kept a diary or sth like that where he mentions a lot of the ordinary stuff happening in a Civil war reg during the war) you'll find that in many cases it is mentioned that the enemy came in contact with their pickets. I am saying that because there were many WHO said that light inf tactics were used much more in the napoleonic wars. the sole diference in the napoleonic wars was that french battallions had at least one company of voltigeurs WHO were the best shots and there were trained units of tiralleurs and chassuers a pied even in the imperial guard WHO were trained marksmen. this was obviously very difficult to happen in the acw save for few exeptions that have been already mentioned by others. having trained marksmen demands having a regular army and in the acw both armies with a few exceptions like gen sykes lead brigade(i think the whole division was made up of regulars but i am not 100%sure) of union regulars in the battle of chancellorsville did not happen. even the goverment recognised the fighting armies as volunteer and they were provisional armies not regulars that would be disbanded after the end of the war.

    P.S. When i mentioned that the french during the napoleonic wars had organised light inf i by no means meant that only the french had organised light inf. Other Nations like britain had organised light inf as well.
    Last edited by The Fearless Hussar; 05-27-2017 at 07:59 PM.

  6. #26
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    Hahahaha

    Quiet in the ranks

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyo8346 View Post
    Hahahaha Last four. Like it

    Quiet in the ranks......

    I will fekin run you through . !


    Fekin Canadians

    Ham egg and chips .a breakfast today a traditional meal brought back from the trenchs in 1914 -18
    The lads could snatch a meal on 24 hrs out of the line . This would be in very many cases the only thing a French kitchen could present Ham egg and chips.
    Thin cut ham was in 1914 a Canadian habit.. it is relivent here as the Candian troops on the western front were paid so much more than the English soldiers.. Thin cut ham became the norm in the French estamina (a bar behind the lines ) to attract the richer Canadian soldiers through the door.
    So remember the boys of the old brigades when ordering this breakfast , it was a last meal for many an Englishman and his commerdes.
    Before 1914 sliced thin waffers of ham was unknown to the British soldiers and there people Cut potatoes chips with Eggs fried in oil were too unheard of in Britain before the war
    Last edited by Kilburnblue; 05-29-2017 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fearless Hussar View Post
    First of all this has gone a bit off topic. the topic was whether rifles could be reloaded by people behind the main firing Line during an engagement. well THIS IS ALREADY IN GAME. just drop your rifle and the guy behind you can take it and reload it and then you can take it back and fire it. ta da DONE! if you want sth quicker than this like immediatly giving the rifle to the guy behind you this means that a brand NEW animation, which is also not all that necessary, will have to be implemented and since it wont be so important i guess it wont be included till later in the development.

    Second what you proposed is useless in the attack, at least in most offencive situations. It is mostly useful in defence. Also it was used in the acw in the battle of fredericksburg on marye's heights by confederate troops. BUT there is a reason it was used there. how many people can fire from a wall to a charging enemy? Apparently those WHO are behind the First Line will have a hard time doing so. Those WHO are in front will mostly be able to shoot so it is logical enough for the people behind them to reload their guns for them. This tactic isnt all that useful for a standing unit WHO may be defending but not behind some kind of defending structure like a wall because it obviously slows down the firing rate. It takes time to pass guns from front to the back and vice versa all the time especially under fire from the enemy. The tactic also isnt all that useful for the Weapons we are using at least not in every situation like i have mentioned above. Our guns in game take about 15secs to reload. This is not much. To give an example of the contrary my ancestors WHO fought in the War of Greek Independence of 1821 carried muskets(a kind of them) that were very hard to reload and took a lot of time to do so. So there were many cases where sb else would reload their gun for them while they used another gun.

    Third many minor Civil war battles were very costly as mentioned by many already. Battles that are rarely known like the 2nd battle of Corinth, gaine's mill, glorietta pass(the gettysburg of the far west!), malvern hill and a major battle that gets overlooked soooooo often CHIKAMAUGA. There is no point in saying no to that it is true.

    Fourth though Civil war minor battles were costly that doesnt mean that napoleonic minor fights were not costly. Quite the contrary: i am mentioning 2 battles that i learned about recently 2nd Polotsk and Krasnoi. Few know them but they were costly but still arent considered major. I have limited knowledge on the napoleonic warfare but i know that a lot of minor battles even in the peninsular campaign had High casualty rates. But that in no way undoes the fact that Civil war minor battles were costly as well. After all dead to wounded ratio in the napoleonic wars was much higher than in the acw.

    Fifth about skirmishing i know that in almost if not in every Civil war battle most regiments used picket Lines in front of their main Lines. a notable example is the battle of the fallen timbers where General forrest passed the Union picket Line and fell just by himself on the main Union brigade Line. also if you read about the 33rd alabama regiment(very important reg of the south because one of their privates kept a diary or sth like that where he mentions a lot of the ordinary stuff happening in a Civil war reg during the war) you'll find that in many cases it is mentioned that the enemy came in contact with their pickets. I am saying that because there were many WHO said that light inf tactics were used much more in the napoleonic wars. the sole diference in the napoleonic wars was that french battallions had at least one company of voltigeurs WHO were the best shots and there were trained units of tiralleurs and chassuers a pied even in the imperial guard WHO were trained marksmen. this was obviously very difficult to happen in the acw save for few exeptions that have been already mentioned by others. having trained marksmen demands having a regular army and in the acw both armies with a few exceptions like gen sykes lead brigade(i think the whole division was made up of regulars but i am not 100%sure) of union regulars in the battle of chancellorsville did not happen. even the goverment recognised the fighting armies as volunteer and they were provisional armies not regulars that would be disbanded after the end of the war.

    P.S. When i mentioned that the french during the napoleonic wars had organised light inf i by no means meant that only the french had organised light inf. Other Nations like britain had organised light inf as well.
    Hello Hussar Right a little off subject but in essence and lineage still just on it

    Hussar good name I have a son in the RTR H Q Sqn Queens Royal DRAGOON Gds so forgive me when I say good name but not that good also please forgive the vanity re son, proud Dad.





    The Brits overcame Napoleons armies deploying in lines as apposed to the French /Prussian block. it's relevant here as Britains army was minuet-in comparison to European armies, as with the CSA in America during the civil war. Being always outnumbered every shot was to count and the round aimed and utilised against an individual enemy . This took us down a separate rout with regard fire drill. Fireing repeated volleys with smoth bore muskets did not happen at all in the British field armies by design, the tactics of the red coated British Regiments was a single volley then get to close quarters with the bayonet. Here the discipline and professional soldier for life made all the differences. After 1888 the rifled barrel brought the War office kicking an screaming into the new order of the day .
    The Royal Navy is the senior service in the British armed force and the Red coated army came a poor second to it .


    The French thing as you may already know all things French including all Military were at this time in vogue . In Britain and Irelands ruling classes were still gripped by a kind af Napoleonic perfumed rules of engagement fashion cult even despite a generation before the civil war in the US Napoleon was much hated and considered a despot and a anti Protestant Outlawed Roman cathlic dictator.
    Still he was the an iconic vision of fashion and military genius, the colour grey adopted by the CSA for example is French in origin and associated on both sides of the pond as the colour of choise for the Rifle volunteer movement . I must enforces that the volunteer corps in Britain were before 1908 completely independent from the nations armed forces and were not duty bound to obay arders issued by anyone but the local commander

    A notion that flourished at this time . With a compulsory indipendence from the political government of the day no matter what faction was in power these professional civilian part time soldiers Rifle volunteers were raised by local associations and completely self founded . Thus independent from aligience to any Ruling political rule of law
    If a civilian insurrection boiled into open revolt you had no idea what side of the barrackads the local Rifle volunteers would've been on so you can see why a little realised military French cult was so readily taken up by the CSAwithout getting into the political cut and thrust between the French and the British empire the Whole thing grafted easil on to the Rebellion cause .

    Worthy of note
    Rifle volunteer associations in London were riddled with Protestant by nature secret societies and post US civil war the essences of a secret grouping of volunteers may have had some significance interestingly in London the elite Rifle Volunteer Regiments wore Grey and were know as the grey Brigades
    Last edited by Kilburnblue; 05-29-2017 at 04:51 PM.

  9. #29

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    Th use of best marksmen and loaders behind, where used in the Danish/Preussian war of 1864.
    At Mysunde the Danes used that tatic against an overwhelming attacking Preussian force, equipped with the newest "Tünnadel" riffels (loaded from behind) They had superiour fire rate compared to riffle used by the danes, who was equal to the Springfield. The use of preloaded riffels and rapid fire mixed with canister shoots, beat of the Preussian attack.

    I dont think it will be useable in WoR. Just finding the guys doing nothing but loading, will be a a challenge.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRegulator View Post
    Th use of best marksmen and loaders behind, where used in the Danish/Preussian war of 1864.
    At Mysunde the Danes used that tatic against an overwhelming attacking Preussian force, equipped with the newest "Tünnadel" riffels (loaded from behind) They had superiour fire rate compared to riffle used by the danes, who was equal to the Springfield. The use of preloaded riffels and rapid fire mixed with canister shoots, beat of the Preussian attack.

    I dont think it will be useable in WoR. Just finding the guys doing nothing but loading, will be a a challenge.
    The result of a successful action employing (particularly for the first time) a bespoke fire and fire support technique (that at its root was a method Bourn of survival and not dreamt of in basic training) unique to the unit, an in action style for want of a better term did in fact become honed over repeated actions The resulting effective all arms combat tactic was for the veteran Brigades a fact of a new armies fighting life,

    One must understand the professional soldier / general detests and mistrusts the "for the duration" war time recruit So With Napoleonic type military set of rules/regulations in 1860 the regular General staffs on both sides devised a simplified manual basically flawed in its assumption that large "for the duration " new. army brigades of amitures could not be trusted (as could the officers and Ranks of regular corps) to deliver a we'll coordinated attack or defence in the face of the enemy I fear just as they did you have assumed a lack of discipline amongst the war of rights ranks .. Interesting is it not ?
    And so Gen Hs manual of all things military was the simplified solution to deploying and traversing the front with huge armies of amiture . in affect an archaic turn pike 16th /17th peasant levies manual off rules of engagement was responsible for many many huge battlefield casualty lists

    After the first casualties are incurred especially to units of a new army nature who have enlisted not as regular vocational soldiers Officers and NCOs produce much tweeking / and tailoring and s realistic viable battle drill emerges from the front lines
    Routinely to became second nature in the face of the enemy a now veteran unit tactic and method rapidly evolves ,fireing lines bring fire to bare effectively and from behined cover,
    in the civil war innovative in its conception/use and various battlefield manovurs and field craft / affective fire control, could actually be recognised ergo attributed to individual veteran Regiments, it is not inconceivable One could recognise just by the musketry reports from the firing line the Gorgians Texans or Caralonions .
    cohesion and all arms cooperation in the field can be in a retrospective analyses (such as on a W of R forum ) a reason for carring on, the critically decisive pivotal defence or counter action, being attributed to a single or group of units can be most rewarding , as indeed being a component part , any part of an action that in effect wins the day with a feat of arms devised by the units veterans themselves ,most rewarding indeed , i do understand your stance, but the Rifle volunteers work USC worth more than just a "Computer say non" conclusion , perhaps an authentic flexibility will add to the project in due course

    Sir yours

    Tom


    Ps
    Your references to 1864 outstanding bravery by the locally raised brigade troops entrenched deploying canister if they had had as much artillery as the Prussian it might have not been such a bloody bitter affair,, fascinating and a lipmus paper on what was going on in North America at the time

    Prussian Regiments using bolt action Rifles for first time,,,????
    Last edited by Kilburnblue; 05-30-2017 at 02:35 AM.

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