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Thread: Marksmanship and Numbers

  1. #21
    WoR-Dev TrustyJam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McMuffin View Post
    I think all of our points can be summed up with this;

    Weapon ballistics are weird, unreliable, and unrealistic, please fix them, it's not fun.

    Is that fair?
    Not quite.

    While ballistics will be gone through and checked again at some point the rifle ballistics are modelled after the real world counterparts.

    The muzzle velocity and the drop is correct (unless there’s a bug). We might have a slight chance for less than perfect trajectories in there that might need adjusting (need input from another dev as I don’t do code stuff).

    - Trusty

  2. #22

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustyJam View Post
    Not quite.

    While ballistics will be gone through and checked again at some point the rifle ballistics are modelled after the real world counterparts.

    The muzzle velocity and the drop is correct (unless there’s a bug). We might have a slight chance for less than perfect trajectories in there that might need adjusting (need input from another dev as I don’t do code stuff).

    - Trusty
    I feel like "little' can be an understatement at times. For me, the actual ballistics are not terrible and I know they will be fixed. It's the damned inconsistency so I can't quite figure out how to compensate or deal with it. Also the sway is too strong, unrealistically strong.

  3. #23

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    it is difficult to be certain of cause and effect but I have seen firing problems that appear to be lag related. I have fired point blank at enemy soldiers and missed. It appears at least to me that it is because the aviator I was firing at really wasn't in the location I was aiming at. I have also "seen" enemy soldier firing at close range apparently off to the side but hit me. Again I think it is the game video out of synch with the game mechanics.

    Of course, I can't be sure since I don't know how they are implementing the firing mechanics. Is it based on what the player is "seeing" on his computer or on the positions the "server" has placed objects. In many "online" games there is auto targeting to correct for lag problems. You never miss once you select your target. But in a game like WoR it makes a differences if what you "see" doesn't quite stay in synch with what the servers has placed things. Does the server take into account what your computer showed you as the positions and aiming or does it use its own locations which may be different depending on the "lag" between client and server.

    I skirmishes hosted on European servers which typically show me a lag in the 100's, I don't even try to melee unless my target can't see me and hasn't moved in some seconds or I will find no effect for my thrusts. Likewise when firing only apparently stationary targets can be hit regardless of distance.

    I have notice, and have also used, the tactic of using the A and D keys to shift left and right. It is usually enough movement to keep someone aiming even at close range from being able to hit you. It is a problem I have noticed in other MOG's that use actual intersection of the weapon with the aviator to cause damage that players run as fast as they can in random directions to avoid hits until they are ready to target something.
    Lightfoot

  4. #24

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    Yeah i've had similar experiences to what Lightfoot describes, so far i've just contributed it to the servers themselves and there being people from multiple continents playing, which has to cause some desync issues?
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  5. #25
    WoR-Dev TrustyJam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTW View Post
    Yeah i've had similar experiences to what Lightfoot describes, so far i've just contributed it to the servers themselves and there being people from multiple continents playing, which has to cause some desync issues?
    What you're both describing is not related to server lag - at least not only. It is also related to our animations still being a work in progress. Sometimes there's a delay in what your third person animation displays compared to your first person one (going from shoulder arms to aiming for instance, or aiming a different direction). This results in you seeing things such as you listed above.

    In most other games where the weapons are always pointing forward (hip fire/ironsights) it really doesn't matter a whole lot as it would just look like you've been killed by a player hipfiring (when he really was quickly aiming). In our game, however, where the default position is at shoulder arms such a delay is obviously somewhat more problematic as it can look like he's not aiming at you at all when it happens.

    - Trusty

  6. #26

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    This is a lot more complex than we might first assume, point in fact: Last night, after some very frustrating experiences on public servers, I joined a regiment in a similar game to this one. For my first line battle event with said regiment they had mustered sixty men, and so we split into three companies, our side (the British) were slightly outnumbered by the French. Our regiment fought in all five engagements of the night and, I have to say, maintained an amazing sense of organization throughout. The result was, we won five to zero. I really have no idea how many enemy I killed, or even hit, through those five battles but what I learned was this:

    We won because we held the line, we won because we maintained a far better sense of discipline than the enemy did. We won because we fought together.

    Modern studies have shown that battles fought during the War of Independence & the Napoleonic Wars were just as deadly as their American Civil War era counterparts, despite the advent of the rifle musket. These powder and shot FPS games may well be the first true team games of the FPS genre' and require a very very different mindset than those FPS games which are set in more modern era's. I have no doubt that there are problems with the weapons/ballistics in WoR simply because it's in alpha, it's to be expected, but I think that there may well be issue's with what a player is expecting, and what a Dev is trying to achieve.

    The American Civil War is choc full of tales of the heroism of regiments, not so much individual men. I'm not saying those soldiers were not men of courage, they obviously were, but what they achieved together mattered so much more. In games such as this one, how players come together is going to win or loose the day simply because the weapons dictate that. Regiments, not individuals, not individual marksmanship, not Johnny Rambo on a charge, will win battles here.

  7. #27

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    i have playing this game since the skrims have been out and i have said since then that these rifles are no where consistent enough, once you hit someone at 25yrds next shot you miss that just doesnt happen, also i have fired may rifled muskets in real life can i can tell you this i will hit a target in the open at 25yd 95 out of 100 shots, in this at 25yrd it is 50/50 at best so that means something is not right how you modeled the ballistics of the weapons
    you need to do a complete redo of the weapon ballistics sooner than later and dont tell me they are working more or less they are not even close to working at 100yds maybe 50/50 on a standing target at 50yrds 75/25 on a standing target
    under 25yrd you should never miss if you are aimed correctly
    now some people just can not shoot and that is fine but the people who can shoot should be rewarded
    and stop the dam swaying of the guns it is not historical and i know you like your historical
    Last edited by sal_tuskin; 12-11-2017 at 08:14 PM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by sal_tuskin View Post
    i have playing this game since the skrims have been out and i have said since then that these rifles are no where consistent enough, once you hit someone at 25yrds next shot you miss that just doesnt happen, also i have fired may rifled muskets in real life can i can tell you this i will hit a target in the open at 25yd 95 out of 100 shots, in this at 25yrd it is 50/50 at best so that means something is not right how you modeled the ballistics of the weapons
    l
    BUT What you are talking about here is firing a weapon on a range, under any conditions a rifle musket is deadly at 25 yards IF you hit the target, and I'm sorry but under battle conditions you could VERY easily miss a second shot at the same range. An officer who fought for the South estimated that it took four hundred rounds to kill one Union soldier! The point being, that in a 'game' you cannot be too exact, if you strip it down to pure mechanics, then one thousand men shooting at a range of one hundred yards, would kill/wound one thousand men.....and that simply did not happen.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sox View Post
    BUT What you are talking about here is firing a weapon on a range, under any conditions a rifle musket is deadly at 25 yards IF you hit the target, and I'm sorry but under battle conditions you could VERY easily miss a second shot at the same range. An officer who fought for the South estimated that it took four hundred rounds to kill one Union soldier! The point being, that in a 'game' you cannot be too exact, if you strip it down to pure mechanics, then one thousand men shooting at a range of one hundred yards, would kill/wound one thousand men.....and that simply did not happen.
    The battle conditions required for an average soldier to miss close shots (below 50 yards) were generally pretty extreme (low morale, artillery everywhere and extreme chaos can cause shaking or even cause a man to freeze and not be able to do anything). If we wanted to have that as a mechanic, I could kind of get it, but wouldn't recommend it. And I do get why the weapons have to be made inaccurate to be more realistic, but the extreme inconsistency that is spoken of is really bad. I would say, start implementing more drastic 'average soldier effects' around the 70 yard range, below that it's just stupid and the weapons look and feel broken as hell.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by McMuffin View Post
    The battle conditions required for an average soldier to miss close shots (below 50 yards) were generally pretty extreme (low morale, artillery everywhere and extreme chaos can cause shaking or even cause a man to freeze and not be able to do anything). If we wanted to have that as a mechanic, I could kind of get it, but wouldn't recommend it. And I do get why the weapons have to be made inaccurate to be more realistic, but the extreme inconsistency that is spoken of is really bad. I would say, start implementing more drastic 'average soldier effects' around the 70 yard range, below that it's just stupid and the weapons look and feel broken as hell.
    I'd most certainly say that at distances of less than 100 yards you should be hitting what you aim at, no question (given of course that you're a decent shot) not only because it's realistic but because without that kind of accuracy then 'Mr Rambo Bayonet' is just doubly encouraged to do his thing. There is a very important point with these weapons though, firing and hitting a single target is very very different from firing and scoring a hit when shooting at a formed line.

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