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Challis89
02-18-2016, 03:33 PM
Been seeing it a lot recently but did any ranks like staff sergeant, Lance corporal or private first class exist back in the civil war era? I've been looking but can't find evidence of it. Wondering if any of the more clued up can help me as I've been asked if they do by a few people.

JaegerCoyote
02-18-2016, 04:13 PM
Lance Corporal did as a special rank in recruitment depots.

Challis89
02-18-2016, 04:29 PM
Lance Corporal did as a special rank in recruitment depots.

fair enough they must have been rare tho as ive not seen it mentioned anywhere when looking up facts about companies was it a special rank restricted in number?

RhettVito
02-18-2016, 05:09 PM
Lance Corporal did as a special rank in recruitment depots.



Prove it

JaegerCoyote
02-18-2016, 05:19 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=_G4DAAAAYAAJ&q=971#v=snippet&q=971&f=false <-- this explains it.

Challis89
02-18-2016, 05:31 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=_G4DAAAAYAAJ&q=971#v=snippet&q=971&f=false <-- this explains it.

Why thank you, everydays a learning day :) So they are limited in number but exist and as NCOs also. Lance Sergeants a new one on me tho.

Bravescot
02-18-2016, 05:41 PM
https://books.google.com/books?id=_G4DAAAAYAAJ&q=971#v=snippet&q=971&f=false <-- this explains it.

I might actually use Lance Sergeant and Lance Corporal now. Thank you for sharing this.

Challis89
02-18-2016, 05:46 PM
I tried digging into the text but is lance sergeant the same as the british version at the time in that it was cpl acting up to sgt but non permanent? Just curious and like above i will add them as NCO ranks.

JaegerCoyote
02-18-2016, 06:19 PM
According to the regulations, it seems they were ranks in the recruitment depots for recruits that were given and then were suggestions to company commanders and colonels for the ranks of corporal and sergeant.

A. P. Hill
02-18-2016, 06:30 PM
I have to ask:

Will the folks claiming to incorporate these rank fulfill the duties as per regulations? In others words, as staff only at a depot? If so, where is the depot? Regulations make this apparent these are not field grades.

Challis89
02-18-2016, 06:40 PM
I have to ask:

Will the folks claiming to incorporate these rank fulfill the duties as per regulations? In others words, as staff only at a depot? If so, where is the depot? Regulations make this apparent these are not field grades.

Ah cool handy to know guys. Mr hill to answer tour question in time should I be lucky enough to grow a nice sized company I would use them In a training squad for new players to get a feel for the game led by the first Sgt and use the Lance ranks for those looking to advance up a peg. They would fight with us in company events but in the drill camp work on getting them up to speed and seeing how well they can command. I don't know just a thought probably too complicated haha

Bravescot
02-18-2016, 07:24 PM
I have to ask:

Will the folks claiming to incorporate these rank fulfill the duties as per regulations? In others words, as staff only at a depot? If so, where is the depot? Regulations make this apparent these are not field grades.

To answer simply, yes.

To put a bit more context to it I'll be incorporating these into the 6 department I'm establishing in the 42nd Pennsylvania, please see thread for further details on those, as a means to reward those who are working execinally well within their assigned duty. They will not however carry over to field duties where the men rewarded with said rank will remain privates.

TeteRex
02-18-2016, 07:33 PM
I have to ask:

Will the folks claiming to incorporate these rank fulfill the duties as per regulations? In others words, as staff only at a depot? If so, where is the depot? Regulations make this apparent these are not field grades.

True... maybe as trainers but I'm pretty sure they would like to see the battle as well. Ill have to do some research on it as well see if i can find anything else that relates to this matter.

RhettVito
02-19-2016, 01:30 AM
Last I checked for civil war it was

Col
Lt Col
Maj
Cpt
1stLT
2nd LT
SgtMaj -for a battalion
Quartermaster sergeant - A office rank they did not take the battlefield responsible for the company wagon and all the property it contained, including the tents, the company mess gear, the company desk, the company library, the ordnance, the subsistence provisions, and the company tools.-Non-combatant
Ordnance sergeant- Ordnance sergeants were assigned to deal with weapons and ammunition so they were -Non-combatant
Sgt
Cpl
Pvt

Bravescot
02-19-2016, 01:35 AM
You've just been given pretty solid evidence of the ranks Lance Corporal and Lance Sergeant being legitimate. Mr. Hill one of the Historical Advisers don't even dispute it, yet you're still insisting on being this suborn? Wow.....glad you're being so constructive.

LukeYoung
02-19-2016, 01:52 AM
You've just been given pretty solid evidence of the ranks Lance Corporal and Lance Sergeant being legitimate. Mr. Hill one of the Historical Advisers don't even dispute it, yet you're still insisting on being this suborn? Wow.....glad you're being so constructive.

What Rhett is trying to say is , never once was they're a Lance corporal or Sargent in the line and was never a combatant roll in the army in the 19th century, Depots yes , combatants and being in the company of the men who fought no.

The only Sargent's and Corporals who was combatants was the ones listed above.
Sargent's
-------------------
1st Sgt
2nd Sgt

Corporals
------------------
1st Cpl
2nd Cpl
3rd Cpl
4th Cpl

These above are combatants. Not LCpl or LSgt.

JaegerCoyote
02-19-2016, 02:58 AM
True... maybe as trainers but I'm pretty sure they would like to see the battle as well. Ill have to do some research on it as well see if i can find anything else that relates to this matter.

It stated that it was given to recruits in training, once they were mustered in, it was up to the Captain or Colonel to make them Corporals or Sergeants if they wish to. So if they did this, they would Cpl or Sgt. in the field, not LClps and LSgts.

Bravescot
02-19-2016, 10:24 AM
It stated that it was given to recruits in training, once they were mustered in, it was up to the Captain or Colonel to make them Corporals or Sergeants if they wish to. So if they did this, they would Cpl or Sgt. in the field, not LClps and LSgts.

But obviously not all LCpls or LSgts got the chevrons that they got earmarked for, poor guys.

Wallace
02-27-2016, 06:17 PM
also if you only have like three ranker ranks it wouldn't give the people who have been in as long anywhere to go i think that the ranks should be left to the commanders of companies if you want to us historical ranks by all means do so if not then i think there should be an option for that as long as the ranks are to far out there

Challis89
02-27-2016, 06:33 PM
also if you only have like three ranker ranks it wouldn't give the people who have been in as long anywhere to go i think that the ranks should be left to the commanders of companies if you want to us historical ranks by all means do so if not then i think there should be an option for that as long as the ranks are to far out there

I suppose you have a point and would work however you wouldn't be allowed to use that rank insignia on the uniforms as it would detract from the historical accuracy this game strives for. Something i hope for is in historical battles where your fighting as a company rather than solo your company ranks automatically (as long as it existed) on your uniform.

Wallace
02-28-2016, 08:59 PM
I suppose you have a point and would work however you wouldn't be allowed to use that rank insignia on the uniforms as it would detract from the historical accuracy this game strives for. Something i hope for is in historical battles where your fighting as a company rather than solo your company ranks automatically (as long as it existed) on your uniform.

yeah i wasnt mean that they show up but like if someones name shows somewhere it has the rank

thomas aagaard
02-28-2016, 10:21 PM
The lance corporal was only used during the first training and organisation of a regiment... it was a temporary rank with no extra pay or anything, so unless we get 2 map with a deport and camp for training, adding it to the game wold not make much sense.


As have be covered in other topics, the Quartermaster sergeant and Ordnance sergeant where not found in the infantry companies.
(the first was a battalion position and 1st sergeant took care of the weapons in a infantry company)

"Krautz NCOs" cover this very well.

Bravescot
02-28-2016, 10:31 PM
And yet most other sources point to infantry regiments have 1 Quartermaster Sergeant.

Legion
02-28-2016, 11:20 PM
The lance corporal was only used during the first training and organisation of a regiment... it was a temporary rank with no extra pay or anything, so unless we get 2 map with a deport and camp for training, adding it to the game wold not make much sense.


As have be covered in other topics, the Quartermaster sergeant and Ordnance sergeant where not found in the infantry companies.
(the first was a battalion position and 1st sergeant took care of the weapons in a infantry company)

"Krautz NCOs" cover this very well.

Quatermaster sergeants were in the infantry companies but they weren't in the battle line, they took care of the supply wagon for the company and other things.

thomas aagaard
03-01-2016, 12:35 AM
And yet most other sources point to infantry regiments have 1 Quartermaster Sergeant.
Yes the Battalion had one... the companies did not.


Quatermaster sergeants were in the infantry companies but they weren't in the battle line, they took care of the supply wagon for the company and other things.

This have been debated before.
Kautz is very clear in his "NCO's" about what ranks is where in the organisation of a infantry regiment and infantry company.
The Quatermaster sergeant is a battalion position.
Artillery and cavalry had them in the companies... The infantry did not.

Look it up in Para 294 in "Kautz NCOs" or if you want to go to the primary source:
Look up Gen.Order No 126, 1862 and act of March 3, 1863 section 37.
(its quoted in his books "The company clerk" 277 if you don't want to find the Acts)

The infantry company got:
1x captain,
1x 1st LT,
1x 2nd LT,
1x 1st SG,
4x SGs,
8x CPLs,
2x musicians
1x wagoner
and 64-82 privates.
(yes, the numbers might be smaller, but it didn't allow more then what is on that list)

There are no Quatermaster sergeant on that list.

For the day to day stuff the 1st sergeant took care of cartridges, weapons and food.
In combat the (Battalion) quatermaster sergeant was the one who had to make sure the regiment was resupplied if needed.

In the cavalry and artillery it was common for a "company" to operate away from its battalion structure, so they needed the quatermaster sergeant... This was not the case with a infantry company. And if a company was left to guard a bridge or something then the 1st sergeant did the work in this area.


And yes Kautz is a Union officer, but this is based on the prewar US army regulations... and they where copied almost word for word by the CSA army..
So unless you got a very clear primary source that show the CSA regulation not following the US regulation, you can expect Kautz to be correct about the CSA army also.

Bravescot
03-01-2016, 07:00 AM
I think you've gone and simply stated what most people know to be simple common knowledge

thomas aagaard
03-01-2016, 10:29 AM
clearly RhettVito and Legion didn't know... ;-)

And the idea that the companies did have one, have been written in other topics...

Challis89
03-01-2016, 10:35 AM
To be fair thomas we have the sources for what was company and Regimental ranks so you did just repeat what we have been told the link is pretty good btw a great find by jager However I didn't know there was a dedicated wagon driver who o doesn't think we need that as a rank.

CJ1515g
03-01-2016, 06:37 PM
Cool topic here about the Lance Cpl, and Sgt Ranks. I learned something new. I would like to put my opinion into this. I myself want this game to be as realistic as possible, ranks included. Though I had a similar discussion before about made up ranks. The person made the argument that they have made up ranks to help keep the people in his game regiment feeling accomplished without having to promote them to high to fast because of all these in between ranks. So this thing should be up to the CO of the company. The game on the other hand should just have the rank insignia that were just there for the people fighting in the battle, for your character creation.

Wallace
03-05-2016, 02:41 PM
Cool topic here about the Lance Cpl, and Sgt Ranks. I learned something new. I would like to put my opinion into this. I myself want this game to be as realistic as possible, ranks included. Though I had a similar discussion before about made up ranks. The person made the argument that they have made up ranks to help keep the people in his game regiment feeling accomplished without having to promote them to high to fast because of all these in between ranks. So this thing should be up to the CO of the company. The game on the other hand should just have the rank insignia that were just there for the people fighting in the battle, for your character creation.

i completely agree