View Full Version : Line Battle Map
McMuffin
12-17-2017, 01:44 AM
We desperately need this if you (developers) want to see this game progress in the right direction and get the proper feedback, you have to make a linebattle map and game mode. And it would be as simple as this, make a big open map (think of Napoleon: Total War "Grassy Flatlands," see pictures below if you do not know), and remove the capture point, that's it. You will not get the right feedback if you have us fighting in these skirmish maps, we are unable to do any lines properly and execute these battles. People right now just go and sprint towards the point, forgetting any semblance of civil war line battles, hide behind a rock and fence, and that is it. You will continue to not correctly test your game (to most people who play this, this is a game, they paid 70 dollars for it, you cannot say it is just an Alpha and justify it) and people will lose interest. Just convert two of the pre-existing servers (we never use more than one or two servers during high volume event days) to a dedicated open map line battle. It is such a shame to see this beautiful looking, and thanks to the engine upgrade, pretty smoothly functioning (relatively) game go to waste as people sprint around and shoot people like chickens with their heads cut off. And don't say you can't have a big enough map, Hookers Push is plenty big. Add some hills, maybe a fence or stone wall, tree's, etc., and it would be perfect. Also, by the way, move the capture point for Piper farm back to where the CSA can utilize the stone wall, and cover and the Union has to leave the fence to do anything.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/924792560668154956/73D083CE3C57434CD7202D984982A5A01E953AEE/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/924792560668154778/3C8BF98B217099CA230192B8D8A979AA2EAFF5C5/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/924792560668155165/5EFE27E1C8C5A23871E451DEC8E6DB06CBF49083/
Jordon Brooker
12-17-2017, 11:56 AM
I think right now it's about working with what you have, not every battlefield allows for favourable conditions, adapt and overcome. In the future we'll have more open maps but for now we have what we have.
TrustyJam
12-17-2017, 12:03 PM
Thank you for your feedback.
I will dare to question a huge change in player tactics simply based on a more open (we have quite a few open skirmish areas so far) area to fight on without a capture point. Players will always use what's available to their advantage. No map and gamemode can create a strictly "linebattle" mode for you to enjoy. That has to be achieved either by artificial server rules set by an admin in a controlled and locked environment or it has to be "pushed towards" by a set of custom gameplay systems such as our formation system (and flag bearer system in the future).
- Trusty
McMuffin
12-17-2017, 03:11 PM
That's not the point, just ask most people, and you will hear we do not get Civil War line battles. If you do not want to focus your game development on line battles then fine, ignore all of this. Today though, people merely tactical blob up and sprint towards the point, fire a few rounds and probably do a charge or something of the type as they try to desperately take the point back from whoever can make a bigger tactical blob. I used to hear linebattle commands from both sides; I just don't hear anything anymore aside from "come over here, spread out" etc. This madness and no one knowing what to do are because of the capture point system. Don't get me wrong, for skirmishes were civil war line battle tactics were not used and guerilla warfare would sometimes emerge, that is perfectly fine. And I am not asking for a map that enforces line battles strictly. Many people want only linebattles and actions focused around that, yet you put entire units who paid money for linebattles and give them this. You have to see how it can anger some people or just bum them out that this is what they get.
As for the maps, we have that supposedly encourage line battles (only ones I can think of are Pry's Ford, Hookers Push, and maybe Miller's Cornfield, and Piper's Farm if the objective was adjusted) all have something where one side or the other just do the same thing over and over and over and over. Many people genuinely play this like Battlefield 1 or something like that. Officer rambos are also resurfacing as an issue now because it feeds and reinforces that tactical blob mindset of rushing the point with as much gun as possible. Also, a lot of people get stuck with Sergeant Major and do not want to respawn because of the morale system so they just Rambo and die. If you're going to keep people interested in your game, provide a place where they can do line battles. You have all of these pictures of people marching in line formation and doing line battles, but we do not get that anymore.
I know I sure as hell did not pay 70 dollars for a game that was promised to me to deliver line battles, and in the Alpha, which is supposed to be working on core and the basics of the game, has zero incentive nor testing for line battles. The linebattles seem pretty core and basic to a Civil War game in all honesty. I hope it does not take until Early Access where we see testing for line battles and those mechanics; it will be way too late.
TrustyJam
12-17-2017, 03:32 PM
That's not the point, just ask most people, and you will hear we do not get Civil War line battles. If you do not want to focus your game development on line battles then fine, ignore all of this. Today though, people merely tactical blob up and sprint towards the point, fire a few rounds and probably do a charge or something of the type as they try to desperately take the point back from whoever can make a bigger tactical blob. I used to hear linebattle commands from both sides; I just don't hear anything anymore aside from "come over here, spread out" etc. This madness and no one knowing what to do are because of the capture point system. Don't get me wrong, for skirmishes were civil war line battle tactics were not used and guerilla warfare would sometimes emerge, that is perfectly fine. And I am not asking for a map that enforces line battles strictly. Many people want only linebattles and actions focused around that, yet you put entire units who paid money for linebattles and give them this. You have to see how it can anger some people or just bum them out that this is what they get.
As for the maps, we have that supposedly encourage line battles (only ones I can think of are Pry's Ford, Hookers Push, and maybe Miller's Cornfield, and Piper's Farm if the objective was adjusted) all have something where one side or the other just do the same thing over and over and over and over. Many people genuinely play this like Battlefield 1 or something like that. Officer rambos are also resurfacing as an issue now because it feeds and reinforces that tactical blob mindset of rushing the point with as much gun as possible. Also, a lot of people get stuck with Sergeant Major and do not want to respawn because of the morale system so they just Rambo and die. If you're going to keep people interested in your game, provide a place where they can do line battles. You have all of these pictures of people marching in line formation and doing line battles, but we do not get that anymore.
I know I sure as hell did not pay 70 dollars for a game that was promised to me to deliver line battles, and in the Alpha, which is supposed to be working on core and the basics of the game, has zero incentive nor testing for line battles. The linebattles seem pretty core and basic to a Civil War game in all honesty. I hope it does not take until Early Access where we see testing for line battles and those mechanics; it will be way too late.
I'm sorry you don't seem to be thinking we're working towards the best possible "line battle" experience outside of having events set up in private servers (which is how linebattles only work in other games) (private servers will be available later on in the development).
As I stated above, having an open field (we've got plenty of those) without an objective and call it "Line battle map 1" will not make line battles happen. People will find the best possible positions/tactics and stick to that.
- Trusty
jwhal
12-17-2017, 03:45 PM
The reason for this is there is a single point both sides are rushing to right now. They are not going to form up and march to the point and let the other side get there first and establish a firm hold.
Maybe there should be two points a distance apart from each other making each side have to form up on there point to get there timer set. Then the battle will begin and each side is defending there point and trying to take the opposite point.
Then both sides will be attackers and defenders so the moral/tickets could be set more evenly.
TrustyJam
12-17-2017, 03:49 PM
The reason for this is there is a single point both sides are rushing to right now. They are not going to form up and march to the point and let the other side get there first and establish a firm hold.
Maybe there should be two points a distance apart from each other making each side have to form up on there point to get there timer set. Then the battle will begin and each side is defending there point and trying to take the opposite point.
Then both sides will be attackers and defenders so the moral/tickets could be set more evenly.
Our maps are based on historical areas and scenarios. These often dictate an attacking and defending side.
Once the flag bearer spawning is in we have the defending team spawn on the point in the first spawn wave. This will counter any sort of mindless rush from the attackers.
- Trusty
jwhal
12-17-2017, 03:55 PM
Our maps are based on historical areas and scenarios. These often dictate an attacking and defending side.
Once the flag bearer spawning is in we have the defending team spawn on the point in the first spawn wave. This will counter any sort of mindless rush from the attackers.
- Trusty
That will stop the rush to the point and change how things are done at the moment I hope it is sooner rather then later.
TrustyJam
12-17-2017, 03:56 PM
That will stop the rush to the point and change how things are done at the moment I hope it is sooner rather then later.
It is high on our programming priority list. :)
- Trusty
Shiloh
12-17-2017, 04:04 PM
Honestly I don't think we have enough players or server capacities to do line battles. It looks like we could have them at some point but as it stands now, the best we could do - and this is with every player on the field forming up in line at one time - have a 40 vs 40 line battle which would be unlikely to happen unless arranged for in advance. I think we need to let this game mature a bit more and we could see more of that as numbers increase and I don't think it will be too late if this takes until Beta or full-release.
I like to think of it as if this is a large-scale battle that is just beginning and we're the skirmishing forces feeling out the enemy as the main body hasn't arrived yet. We're trying to capture strategic points that are necessary so that when our army arrives, we hold the better ground. The way we fight now is in fact the prelude to how many battles started in the Civil War.
McMuffin
12-17-2017, 11:19 PM
The point of it is to allow people to arrange for the event at all and execute it how they want.
Gamble
12-18-2017, 03:19 PM
People should play and skirmishes as what these are (name says it all)... loose lines, pickets, sharpshooting. I still have hope that the "several hundred" players will be possible at some point, then we'll most certainly see some proper and impressive linebattles :)
McMuffin
12-18-2017, 05:55 PM
I'm not saying that the Skirmish maps should be played as line battle maps, only three could be played like that. I'm just trying to suggest that a map for line battles is created so people who want do to line battles can do that with a lot of freedom. And 40 versus 40 line battles may not sound like much, but in the events where it has been semi-successful, it was a lot of fun. Line battles with 40 versus 40 is fun if it is planned properly, which I know it can be.
Poorlaggedman
12-21-2017, 03:14 AM
To me 'line battle' just wreaks of non-competition. An that wreaks of failure for gameplay. I specifically bought M&B years ago just to get the line battle on after watching lots of the Napoleonic mod videos but I never got the mod. Forcing players to do something counter-intuitive just doesn't work without a good reason.
I really wish players would forget about obtaining this standard cookie-cutter experience and just play the game. The developers want 'that' experience to happen for a Civil War game and if people just played how they saw fit then it's clear with implementations like the 'out of line' feature you could get that experience to some degree when you're on a team that wants to win the match. You'll never get it if all you do is chase after just that and never question why you're actually doing it. The 20% of the team running off on their own gets to decide the match by their deaths counting six times what a guys' 'in line' does with the current system.
I find that there's a standard template of 'line battles' in games and real 'line battles' in history that don't match up eye to eye. Literally the reason for close ranks was to mass your firepower. There is constant skirmishing going on during a battle. Looking at one of those standard Civil War battle maps you'll see the opposing divisions and where they move and meet. What you don't see is what's in between which is constant skirmishing. Even the 20th Maine on Little Round top actually had skirmishers to their front who met the Alabamians somewhere on Big Round Top. Rarely was your first fire a battle line vs a battle line. Only a buffoon let's that happen to his men. These weren't always high-casualty actions but sometimes they were. At Gettysburg you had constant skirmishing, same with many battlefields. Skirmishing companies out in 'no-man's land' and more getting into significant engagements. Medals of Honor were won out there between the lines.
In my opinion a close formation becomes merited when visuals start to really go to crap or you are encountering a heavy force that requires you to do that. The game is trying to force it right now in one fashion by counting your 'out of line' casualties more. You have to honestly look at it and balance out the pros vs the cons of fighting the different ways.
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