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Thread: The Behavior of Soldiers Wounded in Battle by Kevin O達eirne {PDF FILE} ON PAGE

  1. #11
    RhettVito
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazychester1247 View Post
    Read this devs.
    Sorry it took me so long to reply but I think a few of them might have this is a very good article to read to understand what the soldiers went through

  2. #12
    RhettVito
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    Brushing off this thread because of the historical attention to detail that is represented in the article.

  3. #13
    I just don't see any account anywhere ever of fences providing the protection the game simulates. It's silly the game tactics revolve heavily around fences. It's a lot better than it was, it was beyond preposterous before. One would wonder why these guys would ever pile up a barricade of rails from a fence if the fences themselves offered such protection. Such a small percentage of rounds will be impacting squarely in the rail and even then it might just go through it. Barring accurate simulation of ricochets cajoling their way around the snake fences, they should be made much more easily penetrated by a long shot. Currently people still see a serious advantage in forming behind a fence regardless of the direction or facing. War of Fences.

    There's also a substantial number of trees which are known to the lads to soak up bullets at their edges. I'm consistently finding myself creeping out much farther from the edge of a tree than I should have to get a round out and expect to hit anything. I'm also having my life saved a lot by staying close to a tree or choosing not to break a reload to hide when an enemy is firing an execution-range shot from adjacent to tree expecting to see the impact right in his face. I already brought that up, trees hit models need touching up at their man-sized base. Better the hit detection is too narrow than too thick.

    One thing I noticed since the initial fence fix is that I rarely get wounded anymore. I don't think I have once in a good while. Most of the wounds I got all-time were behind a fence. I have video pre-fix of myself getting blood splatter 4-6 times standing alone behind a fence on Dunker church taking close range shots. So was the wounding just a visual mistake? Or what? I feel like I have been wounded by buck-and-ball a few times but it could be my imagination. I also haven't seen any sort of splatter from ricochets on my screen or anything else. Were these removed?

    One feature a lot of people liked from Resistance and Liberation is the 'knock down' feature. You were hit and it was critical enough to elicit you to fall down but you then became conscious in the prone position. Of course, we don't have a prone position (yet). I would not say that modern bullets have sufficient force to 'knock you down' though. Whether they embed themselves in you or pass right through, this doesn't really happen even with the higher velocity. Basically any video you see of people being shot and anything I've ever heard is you can literally get hit straight in the heart (and ensure death), you might fall instinctively as most do but you don't have to. It's as much natural instinct as it is being 'brought down.' Even video of entire magazines of 7.62 being unloaded in a guy prone the body rarely moves at all from the impacts. People hit by modern bullets almost universally drop like a sack of potatoes, they generally don't get knocked back. So I'm not sure where that statement is based on. You also have to consider the possibility of embellishment in historical writing, something that historians rarely consider. I really doubt there were 46 bullets stuck in the guys blanket in your article.

    So it's always a matter of curiosity for me to read accounts of Civil War bullets causing violent movement and knocking people around. Because the bullets are bigger and more likely to flatten out on impact I can see some of it. Just in one account of the 5th NY at 2nd Bull Run there are numerous accounts of hits from about 100 yards violently snapping limbs around and spent bullets sending people in great pain to the rear thinking they're gravely hurt. There's also accounts of people being knocked back by hits. I can't understand it, physics probably goes against a full grown man being moved by a bullet. I suspect it's generally a snap reaction from the shock of feeling a critical hit.

    I really feel like in a game like this it's important that our bullets count for something all the time. The players should have faith that their bullet is going somewhere. This isn't always the case. First there should always be a significant suppression impact on an unsupported enemy which can build real panic that a lone wolf cannot recover from if it continues. Why this was rolled back, I have no idea but I'll get to that elsewhere soon. It's extremely disheartening to see and know your bullets have no effect at all physically as well. A miss is a miss but when objects are involved there's much more happening. The thought of firing on a snake fence and seeing a ball get stopped cold most of the time is silly. It's going to ricochet even if you hit a rail. Those puny snake rails are not giant pieces of timber anyway like on a turnpike road. It's a simple property barrier that should not be considered worth realligning your force just to cower behind. Look at the picture of one of the sturdiest rail fences at Antietam (being a turnpike), the Hagerstown road fence. You can see the edges splintered significantly near the Confederate bodies.

    Bullets are scary things because there's a lot of things that could happen other than impacting squarely in your face. At Fredericksburg many of the buildings in town which Barksdales men were using were wooden buildings. They provided concealment but the bullets were often going through the walls and causing internal splintering as well. Glass really should shatter at some point in the development, or the window panes should never be there in the first place. Even on brick buildings, window sills need to be easily penetrated and cause splintering.

    As to reenactors... I think they're basically set up by the safety rules in place. Insurance and liability basically inhibits all of us in some way, sometimes for good reason. They also, understandably, don't want to drop their musket. It's amusing watching them all hold on their musket with a death grip in the movies while the paid actors and stunt men will actually drop them as you'd expect a real casualty to the overwhelming majority of the time. I was spectating the Gburg 155th (much thanks to them for putting the wrong start times on their website) and they had one guy bolt out of the ranks towards the audience and get shot by his own men with the announcer in on it. I thought it was kind of crass. And of course he was probably the only one doing that the entire event whereas as I talked about in my videos about CW combat the real thing surely looks significantly more messy. But, hey, not only are they doing it for free but they're paying to reenact so barring another surge in interest in the Civil War I don't see the funding being available to make significant changes. He's right about the behavior of wounded though, it could be a lot better especially wherever it gets immortalized on film which it always is anymore. BTW, this article was posted before in here because I've already read it and I don't read those types of articles.

    There's a lot of talk about bullets hits in the article about the 5th NY, since they got utterly wrecked at 2nd Bull Run
    https://www.battlefields.org/learn/a...w-york-zouaves
    Last edited by Poorlaggedman; 10-13-2018 at 06:00 PM.
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  4. #14

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    What I like about these Devs is that they know their history and they know how to implement it into the game. With fences they're obviously not trying for realism, the simple truth is that we do not have enough players to acurately simulate the amount of casualties that the weapons could really cause. So they've put 30% protection on split rail fences, they're added sway to the aim etc etc, all in an effort to make these battles viable between the amount of players we're going to have per server. They're doing a fine job of finding a balance between realism and gaming.

    As for bullets not knocking people down? It's largely Hollywood of course, however, it can happen if bone is struck (for example look at the Zapruder film of Kenedy being shot) but more often than not it will spin them around rather than knock them off their feet.

    On the subject of hitboxes, yeah they definately need a lot of work.
    ''I'm here to play an American Civil War era combat game, not Call of Duty with muskets.''.

  5. #15
    RhettVito
    Guest
    I still think the fence should offer less protection. Just to be honest there should be some sort of bullet penetration on the sprit rail fence.I know there is already penetration on the small fences such as a small white ones on Harpers Ferry.

  6. #16
    I'm all for this to add more realism into WOR.

  7. #17
    Two comments...

    First, increasing realism to near real life effects will impact upon the game's rating. That may not matter much in the US, where the PEGI rating is an industry self-regulated imposition, but it will be a consideration for the rest of the world's game markets, where 'realistic' graphics/behaviour are a significant component of the rating decision.

    Second, and this is a personal viewpoint, do you really want to have near realistic wound effects? From what I'm seeing, there's a bit of grief about people who don't follow orders or conform to company actions now, throw in dazed troops wandering off or flip flopping around and you'll increase the problem.

  8. #18
    RhettVito
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hidden Gunman View Post
    Two comments...

    First, increasing realism to near real life effects will impact upon the game's rating. That may not matter much in the US, where the PEGI rating is an industry self-regulated imposition, but it will be a consideration for the rest of the world's game markets, where 'realistic' graphics/behaviour are a significant component of the rating decision.

    Second, and this is a personal viewpoint, do you really want to have near realistic wound effects? From what I'm seeing, there's a bit of grief about people who don't follow orders or conform to company actions now, throw in dazed troops wandering off or flip flopping around and you'll increase the problem.
    More real wounds yes please . I would like to see wounded animations. I mean the game already has gore why not add wounded to really drive the chaos of battle home.

  9. #19
    Very interesting read, that.
    I wonder, though, how wounding could be integrated in a game where you can respawn anytime with full health instead of limping to the back of the line to get patched up?

    I am all for wounds that do not kill every time but incapacitate to some degree, limiting you in various ways and forcing you to withdraw to a specified area to recover before you loose all your blood (and your life). The death timer could be as simple as blackening vision, variable with the severity of the wound.

    But that would mean your team is bereft of your contribution on the line for maybe 2 minutes while you get back. How could we make this behaviour worthwhile for the team? Maybe every seriously wounded man that gets back to spawn replenishes team's tickets by 5?
    Or, more realistically, you fall on the ground incapacitated and with a death timer ticking and if someone of your team picks you up before that timer expires and carries you to the spawn, then your team gets the 5 tickets. You should have the option to just respawn and not play the wounded recovery part, if you so wish or if the situation demands it.
    Last edited by EneCtin; 03-29-2019 at 07:03 PM.

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