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Thread: One hit charge kills?

  1. #1

    One hit charge kills?

    So. A recent thing I've noticed that I feel is rather silly is the absence of one-hit bayonet kills whilst in the charge.
    I think that if you are charging with the bayonet mounted, and you stab someone without interruption it should be a one-hit kill, however, I think that if you are shot - or stabbed, or parried by another melee attack I think it should go back to the two-hit kill system.

    Atm I have no real desire to use my melee weapon, even if I get the jump on someone as if I snuck up behind a man, and stabbed him in the back he has the opportunity to swing around and shoot me, or, rather stab me while I am waiting for recharge, making me lose my advantage - I'd rather just run up to people and shoot them at close range instead of risking the melee battle.

  2. #2
    WoR-Dev TrustyJam's Avatar
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    Thank you for the feedback.

    Before the introduction of the two-hit requirements and delay in melee there was little to no actual line fighting going on. Melee was the go-to choice for most players as it was by far the most effective way of killing your enemy. While the current melee system is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination it does effectively lessen the usefulness of melee which was its primary goal.

    We don't intend WoR to be a melee game with bits of shooting - quite the reverse of that actually.

    As the melee system gets updated you might see the introduction of 1 hit kills again but not in its current state.

    - Trusty

  3. #3
    If it were me, I'd make it so certain things have to be met before the melee kill is an instant.
    For example; has the player been charging for more than at least 10 seconds and has built up momentum? Was the person they stabbed looking towards them? What part of the body did they strike, etc.
    It'd be nice to be rewarded for being smart with the areas I strike, and how exactly I strike, and I believe that a player who has stabbed the enemy in the back should have a better chance than the player who has been stabbed, and is attempting to turn around and engage with the bayonet.
    It'd also help players who wish to model themselves off Grenadier type soldiers.

    Something like the paper doll system in Red Orchestra/Rising Storm that relays damages to different parts of the body would be nice to see for melee and gunplay alike.

  4. #4
    There's so little precedence to the Hollywood BS of bayonet usage though in the Civil War. It's a constant misconception that's perpetuated about the Civil War when it just wasn't reality even when the guys were in meelee with bayonets fixed they were rarely used. Just like the idea of cavalry in the American Civil War as a real lethal meelee threat to infantry. Cavalry in the ACW could only really be called light cavalry compared to the heavy cavalry that had been employed in Europe up 'til that point with that goal of skewering infantry. Yet people get the conflicts and the methods and tactics confused just like with bayonets. The bayonet is a weapon of fear that was seldom used in the Civil War other than what is essentially a game of chicken. One side decided it'd be better to hold the charge or fall back to a better position. They didn't just run at each other full sprint stabbing each other in the guts. Did it happen somewhere some time in the Civil War? Possibly. Are there really any accounts of it that I'm aware of? No. The bayonet was used but very seldom and not leaning on the momentum of 10 seconds of sprinting that's silly. Reckless human players with no fear gave us majority meelee kills when it was one-hit one-kill. Why would you stand and reload when you can fire once and then close 100 yards to meelee before the other guy can reload? Nobody did and it was completely stupid. See the video below starting at 9:49. That's how it was all the time on the big and small scale

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osjq5XTcYWA&t=9m49s
    Last edited by Poorlaggedman; 04-07-2018 at 12:51 AM.
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  5. #5

    USA General of the Army

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    The bayonet is great for roasting a pilfered chicken or other small farm animal.

  6. #6

    USA Sergeant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poorlaggedman View Post
    Just like the idea of cavalry in the American Civil War as a real lethal meelee threat to infantry. Cavalry in the ACW could only really be called light cavalry compared to the heavy cavalry that had been employed in Europe up 'til that point with that goal of skewering infantry.
    The issue for the first part of the war where poorly trained soldiers/horses and terrain that was not as open and flat as in Europe.
    It took 2+ years to train a good cavalry soldier... this was known by ever professional cavalry soldier.

    By late 1863 federal cavalry had finally learned how to use their sabers and did so effectively in a number of battles... and the csa cavalry had no real response.
    (The Battle of Mine Creek, the 2nd largest cavalry battle in the Civil War is one example, where union cavalry, outnumbered 2-1, simply charged the csa cavalry head on with sabers drawn and routed the rebel cavalry on contact)

    Quote Originally Posted by Poorlaggedman View Post
    Yet people get the conflicts and the methods and tactics confused just like with bayonets. The bayonet is a weapon of fear that was seldom used in the Civil War other than what is essentially a game of chicken. One side decided it'd be better to hold the charge or fall back to a better position. They didn't just run at each other full sprint stabbing each other in the guts.
    Correct. When it come to the bayonet this was no different that during the Napoleonic wars. Driving an attack forward require training and discipline. And the same for the defender... And it rarely came to contact when the two sides was fighting in the open. Either the defender had taken the needed casualties to skirmishers and artillery and fell back. Or they stayed and gave the attacker one or two good volleys and the attacker fell back out of range.

    Napoleonic armies was just way better at both things... They usually had 25-33% of a unit out in front in skirmish line for this. And they actually did much of the fighting... and they moved a lot faster on the battlefield by being able to use column of companies/divisions (often called an attack column) for movement.
    And only if the enemy did not fall back, did they evolve into line for the firefight. This again take training... and works better on an open battlefield, then in a Forrest.

    But the moment we add villages, town or fortifications it often became very bloody and the bayonet was used... in both wars.
    Thomas Bernstorff Aagaard

  7. #7

    CSA Captain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poorlaggedman View Post
    There's so little precedence to the Hollywood BS of bayonet usage though in the Civil War. It's a constant misconception that's perpetuated about the Civil War when it just wasn't reality even when the guys were in meelee with bayonets fixed they were rarely used. Just like the idea of cavalry in the American Civil War as a real lethal meelee threat to infantry. Cavalry in the ACW could only really be called light cavalry compared to the heavy cavalry that had been employed in Europe up 'til that point with that goal of skewering infantry. Yet people get the conflicts and the methods and tactics confused just like with bayonets. The bayonet is a weapon of fear that was seldom used in the Civil War other than what is essentially a game of chicken. One side decided it'd be better to hold the charge or fall back to a better position. They didn't just run at each other full sprint stabbing each other in the guts. Did it happen somewhere some time in the Civil War? Possibly. Are there really any accounts of it that I'm aware of? No. The bayonet was used but very seldom and not leaning on the momentum of 10 seconds of sprinting that's silly. Reckless human players with no fear gave us majority meelee kills when it was one-hit one-kill. Why would you stand and reload when you can fire once and then close 100 yards to meelee before the other guy can reload? Nobody did and it was completely stupid. See the video below starting at 9:49. That's how it was all the time on the big and small scale

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osjq5XTcYWA&t=9m49s
    He's more or less correct in everything he says here. There were instances of bayonet charges (Little Round Top being the most obvious) but they were rare, and because of this it's only right stabbing with the bayonet in the game should take more than one hit to kill. There was a study done on combat effectiveness (I forget the name) which even suggested that American soldiers throughout history have always been adverse to using the bayonet, preferring instead to use their rifles as clubs. I believe they were great as candle holders though :P

  8. #8

    USA Sergeant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sox View Post
    There was a study done on combat effectiveness (I forget the name)
    I guess you are thinking of General Marshalls study during WWII and Korea... and it is highly problematic.
    Full of bad method, and unsupported ideas.
    Thomas Bernstorff Aagaard

  9. #9

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    I think we ought to copy Red Orchestra's melee system where you can run with your bayonet already "charged" (weapon already pulled ready for the thrust) by holding down the fire key and causing the attack to do vastly more damage than a regular melee done while stationary.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAtPZqlpF08
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    https://www.youtube.com/user/360Nomad

  10. #10

    CSA Brigadier General

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extracrispi View Post
    I think we ought to copy Red Orchestra's melee system where you can run with your bayonet already "charged" (weapon already pulled ready for the thrust) by holding down the fire key and causing the attack to do vastly more damage than a regular melee done while stationary.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAtPZqlpF08
    That would be so fucking satisfying in game to charge your bayonet and then release it to hear the flesh of your enemy bloody out.

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