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Thread: Some thoughts on gameplay and teamplay

  1. #1

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    Some thoughts on gameplay and teamplay

    Being around since the days of 64 players per map or so, I had plenty of time to think about all the features that got implemented already and those still missing.
    So far I love the game: it's one of my favorites currently and can make it on my top-10-list of games - which is an achievement, since I'm playing games for 20 years now. It is also the first FPS game where I accept getting killed anytime due the randomness of the battle. After all, years of experience don't make much of a difference: if you're standing in a line, exchanging fire with the other side, it's purely random if you get hit by the next volley.
    Also WoR is one of the very few games where teamplay is absolutely essential for any player and it's also one of the few games teaching "there are no heroes in war". In fact, an individual soldier is just one guy and one guy can't change the course of a battle. As part of a unit however, the individual soldier can help to move his own side closer to victory.
    Last but not least the community is a very fun crowd to have around, I hope it'll stay that way even after release of the game. So far, the number of "elitists" or "pro gamers" is very low and that means, the community is friendly towards most (new) players.
    That being said, I need to throw in a few suggestions regarding teamplay / gameplay in general. Please excuse me if I go into details already discussed.

    Flag Bearer & Flag Gameplay
    Situation:
    Current plan is to make the flag bearer a spawn point in a later release. The idea sounds well enough, if you consider flags were used as rally points that time.
    However, flags were also used in combat to determine which unit stands where and what side they're on. If you put said flag in the middle of a battle, it'll be fatal for the guys spawning next to said flag - 'cuz they start with empty muskets and get fired at the very moment they spawn. It also would add a visible spawn of fresh guys in the field, which damages immersion.
    What I think should be done:
    We have bonuses for "Formation" and "Skirmishes" and a malus for "Out of Formation". Right now it's determined by the amount of guys next to you what bonus applies. Also if you're kneeling you always will get the "Skirmish" bonus as long as one of the bonuses apply, which i some situations doesn't make much sense.
    Anyways, I'd love to see the flag bearer is adding to those bonuses. I'll talk about those later.
    Keep in mind a regiment / company was recognized by the flag it had - which should be stressed out in WoR as well. Losing a flag was considered as a huge morality penalty, especially for the rest of the unit that made it back from the field. Sometimes it was considered dishonorable allowing the enemy to capture an unit's flag.
    Which brings me to another idea how to make the flag becoming more than just a nice optical addition to a line: The line stands and falls with the flag. Therefore it should be possible to pick up the flag of a fallen flag bearer, symbolizing the unit is still standing and fighting. Also it should be possible for the enemy doing the same, which in return should deal a brutal blow to the other side's morale while boosting their own.
    Example:
    Union unit attacks a CSA position and get virtually destroyed. Maybe a few guys survived and they all flee the field. The flag bearer gets shot and drops the flag and nobody is nearby to pick it up again, except the CSA soldiers. They now can pick up the flag, captureing it for their side, resulting in a slight morale boost (+5% of max morale) while the Union suffers a morale penalty (-10%).
    Recovering a captured flag may repair the damage done (+10%) but it'll cost time and men doing so.
    What does that mean for gameplay?
    Most lines may now have at least one flag bearer bolstering bonuses granted by "in Formation" or "Skirmishing". However, we might also see less melee charges, especially if there's a danger the flag bearer may fall with no one being able to pick up the flag except the enemy. Charges may now require some ahead planning and additional maneuvers / attacks on the flanks, before moving in to take that position.

    COs and NCOs
    Situation:
    We have COs and NCOs available as own classes. Usually those classes are roleplay'd by the players the way they should. What we don't have is a way to find out who's giving or relying orders.
    What I think should be done:
    Actually, there's only a few detail stuff that needs to be added. For instance, COs and NCOs may provide some bonuses if you're near them. For instance, receiving the "in Formation" bonus may require a CO/NCO setting up a line first (drawing the line to the ground), otherwise you might get only the "Skirmish" bonus. While the CO provides an overall bonus to discipline to the unit, it's the NCOs keeping them in line. Soldiers supported by a NCO nearby my receive a slight bonus improving their reload speed and less missfires, may receive a reduced under-fire-penalty when getting shot at etc, etc. Long story short: COs and NCOs provide some bonuses to the soldiers nearby.
    However that door swings both ways. Currently we have some "Rambo-Officers" using their Revolver for "killing sprees". Six rounds are enough to take out a small skirmish unit, after all! A CO/NCO that dies receives a higher penalty for his team if "Out of Formation" while "Skirmish" and "In Formation" don't add additional penalties. Also, if the last CO/NCO of a unit dies, all remaining soldiers receive a discipline penalty, so they may rather retreat than remaining at the spot.
    Example:
    A CSA unit of 40 soldiers including one CO and three NCOs are attacking an Union position. While they're exchanging salvos, the CO and two of the NCOs die. The unit still stands, not yet shattered. The NCO can no decide to either fall back (sparing the unit a moralty penalty) or remain there, holding out until reinforcements including CO + NCOs arrive. Suddenly he gets killed too and whatever is left of the unit in question is now "shattered", removing all bonuses while adding a "low discipline" debuff. That means incoming fire has more influence on them, reloading muskets takes longer or they have a higher chance to suffer from missfires. In other words: the unit's cohesion is about to break and the best solution here is to retreat.
    What does that mean for gameplay?
    COs and NCOs do now give actual boons to the units they're commanding. Not only do players give orders, the presence of COs and NCOs do have a direct influence on the soldiers ingame, improving all kinds of stats or, as I would call it "discipline" and "unit cohesion".


    Prisoners of War
    Situation:
    Somehow a charge managed to fail and only a few survivors are still standing. Since they can't flee nor hope to win the fight, they can only do one thing: surrender.
    Not implemented in the game, but would be a great addition gameplay wise.
    What I think should be done:
    Players in such situations can opt to surrender. This option is only available when: no own flag bearer and no CO or NCO are nearby that didn't surrender beforehand. Once surrendered, the enemy has to capture you, netting you a "Captured as Prisoner of War" despawn with the penalty of "Fallen in Formation".
    Shooting someone who surrendered also does net only a "Fallen in Formation" penalty for the guy shot, but applies also a penalty for the other side (War Crimes). The guy who surrendered also can no longer pick up weapons or resist getting captured (can't double quick / run).
    Example:
    Well, see above,
    What does that mean for gameplay?
    People who lost their unit have now an option to surrender, reducing the chance of getting killed "out of formation". Surrendering actually helps your side to suffer less casualty penalties.

    Heat of Battle - Buffs and Debuffs
    Situation:
    Right now we have the first iteration of bonuses, namely the "in Formation" and "Skirmishing" bonus, that does not only determine the cost of getting killed but also reinforces the resistance to incoming fire (less shell shock & supressed by fire effects). I think that's well enough, but I'd love to see more buffs / debuffs, some of 'em got mentioned already.
    What I think should be done:
    More Buffs:
    - "Cohesion" - is a buff given by COs, NCOs, flag bearer and a minimum number of soldiers. Cohesion is a cumulative buff that does not grant any benefits directly, but it is required as a measurement how "cohesive" (how "stable") a formation is. The more soldiers are in a formation, the more NCOs support the CO, the more cohesive (stable) is a formation. Cohesion is required to enable any other positive "formation based" buffs.
    - "Discipline" - is granted by COs and NCOs. Discipline improves reload speed by a small amount and reduces effects of incoming fire or watching fellow soldiers die. Also Discipline helps to reduce chances of missfire drastically.
    - "In Formation" - since discipline is already dealing with effects of incoming fire and shells by artillery, "In Formation" is used to determine the penalty for getting killed in action (as before). It also applies the "Formation Spot" feature, which allows soldiers to fall in on free spot. Once there, movement speed (Quick Time and Double Quick) is synchronized so once the formation starts moving, all soldiers are kept in line. "Formation Spots" are based on the line and allignment drawn by the CO/NCO in charge and only if the formation has been set up before, the "In Formation" bonus applies. This also includes soldiers crouching, enabling the use of double- or triple ranks formations.
    - "Skirmishing" - applies whenever enough soldiers are acting together. Presence of a CO, NCO or flag bearer is not required and the bonuses are half as powerful as for "In Formation".
    - "Enthusiastic" - a buff that applies as long as the side is still "Battle Ready" or "Engaged" and the other side has a lower rating. The bonus boosts the effects of Discipline.
    Buff-Debuff:
    - "Breaking" - is actually a two-edged sword. Once a side is "Breaking", it's all up the COs and NCOs to keep their unit together. As long as they can keep the Cohesion buff active, the soldiers fight even harder with an additional buff to reload speed. Imagine soldiers fighting for their very life with nothing to lose - they'll ensure the other side has to pay with as much blood as possible. However, once cohesion is gone, "Breaking" turns into a debuff, resulting in a slightly improved reload speed at the cost of a massive chance to missfire due lack of discipline. They're simply "breaking" at that point.
    Debuffs:
    - "Shattered" - is a debuff that happens once cohesion is gone. A shattered unit suffers from incoming fire and has a tendency to missfire. Also their performance in melee is reduced.
    - "Exhausted" - is a debuff applied to individual soldiers caused by running around a lot or getting injured. The debuff is in the game already, however, it should also increase the chances of missfires.
    - "Panicked" - a timed debuff applied after taking massive casualties. It actually negates most buffs even if a CO, NCO or flag bearer is still alive. Without one of them, the debuff changes to "Shattered" instead after a while. Reload speed is reduced and chances for missfires are increased, drastically reducing a unit's performance even if they're technically still not "shattered" yet.
    Example:
    Above, since I had to explain the buffs and debuffs.
    What does that mean for gameplay?
    All those buffs actually are there to simulate the influence of the battle on a single soldier. If a soldier sees comrades die by the droves, it may leave him panicked. In the other hand he might receive a morale boost if he knows his unit is led by capable officers and NCOs or if the overall combat performance is in favor of his faction.
    The ideas regarding buffs and debuffs are largely based on Total War's morale system for units.

    -----------------------

    Thank you for taking time reading this posting.

  2. #2
    WoR-Dev TrustyJam's Avatar
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    Thank you for your very detailed suggestions!

    The flags being capturable is something we'd like to explore in the future - we've discussed the possibility of a morale buff/nerf to it as well just as you suggest. There are a few things to overcome with this - we don't want a single mistake from the flag bearer (running alone to the enemy, gets killed, enemy captures flag = no more respawns on the flag bearer for the rest of the match) be the match deciding factor in the game. The captured flag would either need to be despawned after a while in enemy hands or we would need to allow a clone of the flag to be fielded to counter this.

    The POW suggestion has also been discussed internally. While tempting to give players an option to get captured and thus costing their team less morale, it does introduce a few possible issues - we'd like to stay clear of as many despawning characters as possible - as you say yourself, a despawned character will take away from the overall immersion. We're also not overly keen on building up too rigid mechanics around "RP" elements. Doing this, comes with a risk of altering what we think should be a rare, cool player driven moment into an outright gameplay choice. We would not like to see a lone wolf flank a line, charge it from the rear, kill as many players as possible before he is noticed only to "surrender" and thus denying his victims any way to revenge their fallen comrades. Not only are they punished if they do kill him, he also gets off much cheaper than if he was killed out of line. In short, a POW surrender mechanic will very easily be "exploitable" to avoid the morale hit of dying out of line (which is the last thing we would ever want to support).

    Officer/NCO specific buffs have been talked about internally as well (see the pattern here? ). Expect to see officer specific game rules to be tested in the not too distant future. These will force officers to stay close to the men they are there to command and in return, we hope, drastically lessen the amount of ramboing officers.

    In regards to your very expanded list of buffs - it is too complicated for me to be able to tell if it will work in practice. I know it will be nearly impossible for players who haven't studied a published list of what all the buffs and nerfs do in great detail prior to playing to be able to tell exactly why they are in they current state and what it means to be in it.

    - Trusty

  3. #3

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    Hey thanks for the feedback.
    Kinda funny some of that stuff is something you're already discussing internally. ^^

    About the flag: actually I was talking about the flag as a "non-spawnpoint" - because it comes with a lot of issues as you can see. Since the flag bearer wants to take part of the action, he won't stay behind. So if he's used as spawn point, players spawning next to him will be put right into battle. However, we definitely need some "mobile" spawn points.
    Do you know the game "Tannenberg"? Players can spawn in the main sector, any captured sector and next to the NCO of their squad. While NCO spawn comes with the same issues with the flag bearer spawn, sectors can become a thing, just with a different approach. Instead of the need of conquer, ownership is determined who's currenty occupying the sector. And since most players are concentrated in one or two lines, things will result in two or three possible spawn points: home sector + any sector Union/CSA currently holds - while not being under attack. If both lines are under attack, players can only respawn in the home sector. If a line is no longer under attack for a minute or two, respawn is possible again. If you want a short supply line of respawns, you may need to set up a small force in a sector nearby (at least skirmisher size).
    That way, unoccupied lines can regrew their strength (simulating reinforcements) while lines under attack need to be reinforced the "long way". It may also force an unoccupied line to move into the fight ... all the jazz.
    Long story short: you may see even more tactical movement than we have now.
    Besides that, I concur: if each flag is unique, a loss of several flags takes away any buffs they might have provided in addition to the "lost-flag-penalty". So something needs to be done here.

    About buffs & debuffs: oddly enough, I didn't find it that complicated. It's safe to say: as long as you stick with your line led by a CO / NCO supported by a flag bearer, you'll suffer no ill effects. Except your guys die right and left, the flag lies on the ground and the CO in charge dies next to you. Then things go south ... like in real life
    Still, you may be right in case of new guys that don't know how to play the game.

  4. #4

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    You have some interesting idea and in some points I agree with you but you should see one and for me the biggest point for the Flag bearer as spawn point is that it supports longer fire fights. Especially later on the full Antietam map it will be annoying to march again 10 minutes forward to the front and get killed by an artillery shrapnel.

    But think about two companies about 20 men strong starting a fight over a range of 200 yards. It's a range enough bullets will miss and with reinforcements which spawn behind the line (since I would like to have the color behind the line....... and not directly next to me ) can easily fall in again at it will make the fight longer and intenser.

    I would like to see such a "duel" over some minutes. The battle maps will be enormous and in my mind it will take hours to conquer all points so fighting should be also a bit longer.
    http://www.warofrightsforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=522&dateline=14500460  02


  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maximus Decimus Meridius View Post
    You have some interesting idea and in some points I agree with you but you should see one and for me the biggest point for the Flag bearer as spawn point is that it supports longer fire fights. Especially later on the full Antietam map it will be annoying to march again 10 minutes forward to the front and get killed by an artillery shrapnel.

    But think about two companies about 20 men strong starting a fight over a range of 200 yards. It's a range enough bullets will miss and with reinforcements which spawn behind the line (since I would like to have the color behind the line....... and not directly next to me ) can easily fall in again at it will make the fight longer and intenser.

    I would like to see such a "duel" over some minutes. The battle maps will be enormous and in my mind it will take hours to conquer all points so fighting should be also a bit longer.
    Can see where you come from
    From my experience I can say, there's a map or two suffering from "too long marches" before the fight. And in such cases, a flag bearer may help to reduce marching time in favor of fighting time. Yet most maps are pretty well balanced and in most cases that extra time is required for both sides to set up a line formation or a proper defense position. This balance may get damaged and the game would feel a bit too much geared towards the actual fight. Yet most of the fun (at least in my eyes) comes from plenty of space where you can maneuver your troops as well as the tactical deepness a proper defeat of the other line provides. The closer the sides spawn to each other, the less options are used provided by the map. In worst case, both lines spawn right in plain sight to each other, start shooting right from the beginning and no one needs to move - it's all about shooting. That'll be rather boring.

    Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see the option to set up "rally points" so you won't have to run 5 miles until reaching your line. Yet I believe the flag bearer (which should be part of the fighting unit, and not be placed at the rear) may be not the best option. Maybe there's some other way to set up forward spawn positions, maybe an Officer can "mark" a rally point - I dunno. Or the flag bearer can plant his flag as rally point - something like that. As long as the spawning does not happen next to engaged troops I'm fine.

  6. #6
    WoR-Dev TrustyJam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CptData View Post
    Can see where you come from
    From my experience I can say, there's a map or two suffering from "too long marches" before the fight. And in such cases, a flag bearer may help to reduce marching time in favor of fighting time. Yet most maps are pretty well balanced and in most cases that extra time is required for both sides to set up a line formation or a proper defense position. This balance may get damaged and the game would feel a bit too much geared towards the actual fight. Yet most of the fun (at least in my eyes) comes from plenty of space where you can maneuver your troops as well as the tactical deepness a proper defeat of the other line provides. The closer the sides spawn to each other, the less options are used provided by the map. In worst case, both lines spawn right in plain sight to each other, start shooting right from the beginning and no one needs to move - it's all about shooting. That'll be rather boring.

    Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see the option to set up "rally points" so you won't have to run 5 miles until reaching your line. Yet I believe the flag bearer (which should be part of the fighting unit, and not be placed at the rear) may be not the best option. Maybe there's some other way to set up forward spawn positions, maybe an Officer can "mark" a rally point - I dunno. Or the flag bearer can plant his flag as rally point - something like that. As long as the spawning does not happen next to engaged troops I'm fine.
    An officer can always order the flag bearer to step back a bit from the front line with his colour guard and they can act as the reserve.

    - Trusty

  7. #7
    Just wanted to jump into say that I like where your head is at Data, some things I agree and disagree with (I honestly hadn't considered something like Trusty's explanation for the surrendering point, and can completely understand from a player pov), but overall this is a nice suggestion thread. I think any one of these ideas, if properly vetted might be worthy to look at as features. The only big thing that might be a bit too difficult is all of those buffs. My 'Extremely' limited knowledge of such things says that to program all of that into a cohesive experience with buffs and debuffs constantly activating and deactivating would be a large strain on an already limited resource pool with everything else being considered in game as it is now.

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