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Thread: Sad News From Richmond, Virginia

  1. #31

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    I can find no sources that confirm what the OP claims, but many U.S. news sites are now blocked in the U.K. According to what I've been able to find out the fire was mostly confined/contained to the library where many books were damaged by water & smoke.
    ''I'm here to play an American Civil War era combat game, not Call of Duty with muskets.''.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by lmatts View Post
    I obviously haven't played the game for as many hours as many others have, but from A. Bravo's previous comment and my short time playing it, there sure appears to be a white supremacy issue with some players, which tends to manifest itself more on the CSA side. It's unfortunate, but it seems we can't all have the respectful and honorable attitude of our brother TwistedDNA. Of course there are trolls, who just try to rile us up, I've seen a bit of that on the Union side while playing - but a game depicting this time period is unfortunately going to act as a magnet for racists to air their views in a forum they deem as acceptable. In my opinion it should be made clear to them that it is not.

    In my view, the fact that the game's developers are globally minded and believe speaking out against racism isn't in their purview is a bit naive - the racially charged history of this country has to be considered, especially when its legacy is alive and well.

    To get closer to the start of this thread, I wonder if Robert E. Lee's descendant voicing his support for the removal of his ancestor's statue from the public square is a worthy enough argument - if the feelings of all people of color on the issue are to be ignored, hopefully at least the opinion of Lee's descendant is more worthy of consideration.
    An extermely naive' point of view that you have there. The 'racists/white supremacists' that appear in this game are nothing of the sort, they're just trolls & idiots shouting abuse because the internet comes with no consequences. No less guilty are those in blue who scream about 'cousin f*****s etc. Does that make it right? well of course not, but as long as they know that they can get away with it, then it'll continue. As for Robert E Lee, what ever his 'decendants might think is rather irrelevant, simply because the man himself thought of slavery as a 'moral and political evil', & like many men of his time the question of slavery was wrapped up with religion as well, the dilema is not so simple as activists in 2020 make it out to be.

    Neo Confederates have as little to do with the American Civil War as Neo Nazi's have to do with World War Two, and yet their particular type of virus continue to plague historical gaming communities. My own Arma 3 community will not play operations as Axis for that exact reason, it simply draws the type of person that you in no way want your community to be associated with. There is only one solution to this problem as far as War of Rights goes, owners of private servers have to ban these players, they have to kick them from their companies, or your community will be forever tainted by their ilk.

    A racist in 2020 is, in no way, the same as someone who believed in the institution of slavery back in the 1860's. Slavery was, and is, abhorent. Slavery was, and is, wrong, but what the racist in 2020 actually knows about the institution of slavery, the political and moral turmoil surrounding that institution & the hard choices faced by people back in the 1800's, could probably be written down on the back of the average postal stamp. Ban them from your servers, ban them from your companies.
    ''I'm here to play an American Civil War era combat game, not Call of Duty with muskets.''.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpytoo View Post
    Not sad at all.

    If they just put accurate plaques on the statues explaining that this person "fought with his life for the right to treat human beings worse than barnyard animals" it would depict an accuracy that a statue itself doesn't represent. Barring that, take em off public property.
    ^^^^ case in point. This player condems Robert E Lee out of hand, obviously without knowing anything about the man, or his motivations.
    ''I'm here to play an American Civil War era combat game, not Call of Duty with muskets.''.

  4. #34
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    It's sad that the victims are those who can't stand up for themselves. It is painful for our regiment and the Russian community to hear that such important historical data has been destroyed. It is difficult to imagine all the value for history. However, here the argument goes off topic. I see this manner of speech and understand what it's all about. And this is a sadder sight than even what happened in Richmond.

  5. #35
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    I personally didn't go around calling rebels in the game 'sister f*****s' or 'cousin f*****s', but I hardly think that's on the same level as calling someone a 'n*****lover' - I agree that they're similar inasmuch as trolls and others think they can get away with such behavior in games, which sucks. Incest and racism are obviously both wrong, but incest doesn't denigrate a whole population of people - and it's not a divisive issue that's prominent in society today in the US.

    I may be naive on a few fronts, I don't dispute that - and I'm always up for learning - but for me and many others it's hard to see the CSA battle flag and monuments to CSA generals being displayed in public as anything other than honoring a legacy of racism. Slavery was one of the cornerstones of the CSA, and there's a reason it's illegal for anyone to fly that flag on our military installations today.

    As far as I know, Lee struggled intensely with his decision of wether to lead the US forces or to lead his fellow Virginians, and he was an honorable man to the end. That still doesn't make him a national hero though, so I think everything should be in museums that explain as much historical context as they can.

    Here's a good article with historical context if anyone is interested

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...germany-215510

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by lmatts View Post
    I personally didn't go around calling rebels in the game 'sister f*****s' or 'cousin f*****s', but I hardly think that's on the same level as calling someone a 'n*****lover' - I agree that they're similar inasmuch as trolls and others think they can get away with such behavior in games, which sucks. Incest and racism are obviously both wrong, but incest doesn't denigrate a whole population of people - and it's not a divisive issue that's prominent in society today in the US.

    I may be naive on a few fronts, I don't dispute that - and I'm always up for learning - but for me and many others it's hard to see the CSA battle flag and monuments to CSA generals being displayed in public as anything other than honoring a legacy of racism. Slavery was one of the cornerstones of the CSA, and there's a reason it's illegal for anyone to fly that flag on our military installations today.

    As far as I know, Lee struggled intensely with his decision of wether to lead the US forces or to lead his fellow Virginians, and he was an honorable man to the end. That still doesn't make him a national hero though, so I think everything should be in museums that explain as much historical context as they can.

    Here's a good article with historical context if anyone is interested

    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...germany-215510
    This a game on the internet. The internet is full of assholes, my recommendation is if you can’t differentiate from trolls and real white supremacists it may not be for you sadly. While I condemn the institution of slavery I certainly can see many of the Confederate commanders were brilliant and the average man was a Christian who fought for his state and not to keep slaves. What I find amazing is that when the Rebs surrendered they were instantly offered food and care by their Union counterparts who they were engaged in bloody conflict for 4 years. Those Union men fought and lost brothers yet embraced their previous enemies immediately. There is something we can learn from that.

    There is something to be said about the duality of man, men like Lee just like us possess good and bad qualities. To look at only the bad things he has done isn’t really fair. Considering during their time slavery was a legally sanctioned practice in the US. Judge them for the time they lived in not the 21st century.

    Do you celebrate the victories of Washington in the Revolution? Slavery was legal and Washington was a slave holder. Yet we rightly don’t demonize him and tear down his statue. He was a traitor to the crown and hero to us, just as the Confederates are heroes to those with southern heritage. History good or bad must stand as a reminder to future generations. All I’m getting at is let’s stop making this a black and white issue when it is far too complicated for that.
    Last edited by TRaider; 06-10-2020 at 02:21 AM.


  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poorlaggedman View Post
    Basic human emotions are very widespread, yes. People will dig under your skin when they can. Online it's usually called trolling. Don't let your world view be shaped by trolls, good Lord. I have a lot of opinions on this and they're spot on. We're basically just seeing yet another threshold be met in communication technology and it's tearing society apart and people are being overly influenced by all the hate. There were underlying reasons the Civil War happened but it actually occurred (people actually showed up to fight) because of flourishing newspapers. Each new technology of connectiveness drives us more and more insane.

    Sad loss indeed. This is why I'm hugely in favor of digitizing collections thoroughly so they can be enjoyed after they're gone. It sickens me how so much CW history, photographs and manuscripts, are held in private collections and controlled like copyrighted content for the amusement or profit of the holders. Many historical societies do this as well. So the collections are vulnerable to being lost and scattered to the wind. I was just dealing with a museum that was very adamant that they own every photograph of a specific item in their collection when that simply isn't true. It's bad enough to lose the items but to have the holder constrain and restrict any visual duplication is asinine.
    I completely agree and understand your frustration. I volunteered to work at the New Jersey State Archives for some time and was pleased to know that every publish book and record statistic are online. But a lot of historical societies in counties don't do this and its irritating.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Sox View Post
    No less guilty are those in blue who scream about 'cousin f*****s etc.
    Hmmm... You sure? Every insult is exactly the same because/when, in your opinion, the offender is just a troll who doesn't really believes what he's saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sox View Post
    A racist in 2020 is, in no way, the same as someone who believed in the institution of slavery back in the 1860's. Slavery was, and is, abhorent. Slavery was, and is, wrong, but what the racist in 2020 actually knows about the institution of slavery, the political and moral turmoil surrounding that institution & the hard choices faced by people back in the 1800's, could probably be written down on the back of the average postal stamp. Ban them from your servers, ban them from your companies.
    We're in 2020, and it's not about why the 1800's people fought for slavery, it's about why 2020's people honor the symbols of that fight. And many of these people honor them because they're white supremacists.

    Quote Originally Posted by TRaider View Post
    This a game on the internet. The internet is full of assholes, my recommendation is if you can’t differentiate from trolls and real white supremacists it may not be for you sadly. While I condemn the institution of slavery I certainly can see many of the Confederate commanders were brilliant and the average man was a Christian who fought for his state and not to keep slaves. What I find amazing is that when the Rebs surrendered they were instantly offered food and care by their Union counterparts who they were engaged in bloody conflict for 4 years. Those Union men fought and lost brothers yet embraced their previous enemies immediately. There is something we can learn from that.

    There is something to be said about the duality of man, men like Lee just like us possess good and bad qualities. To look at only the bad things he has done isn’t really fair. Considering during their time slavery was a legally sanctioned practice in the US. Judge them for the time they lived in not the 21st century.

    Do you celebrate the victories of Washington in the Revolution? Slavery was legal and Washington was a slave holder. Yet we rightly don’t demonize him and tear down his statue. He was a traitor to the crown and hero to us, just as the Confederates are heroes to those with southern heritage. History good or bad must stand as a reminder to future generations. All I’m getting at is let’s stop making this a black and white issue when it is far too complicated for that.
    Most nazi soldiers and even officers didn't fight to subjugate the entire Europe and exterminate the entire jewish people, but we're not judging individual soldiers nor officers, we're judging the ideals they stood out for. All men are, in a way, exactly the same, and all WW2 soldiers suffered, struggled and died with the same fears, hopes and aspirations. I don't see why that would make us see their ideals and the cause they fought for with the relativism you're using, which seems to be saying that, well, since we're all humans and we all have good and evil inside, let's not be that rough with nazis, white supremacist and, why not, criminals in general. Of course there are black and white issues.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Bravo View Post
    Most nazi soldiers and even officers didn't fight to subjugate the entire Europe and exterminate the entire jewish people, but we're not judging individual soldiers nor officers, we're judging the ideals they stood out for. All men are, in a way, exactly the same, and all WW2 soldiers suffered, struggled and died with the same fears, hopes and aspirations. I don't see why that would make us see their ideals and the cause they fought for with the relativism you're using, which seems to be saying that, well, since we're all humans and we all have good and evil inside, let's not be that rough with nazis, white supremacist and, why not, criminals in general. Of course there are black and white issues.
    Are you really comparing the Nazis to the Confederates?
    Last edited by TRaider; 06-10-2020 at 02:45 PM.


  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaider View Post
    Are you really comparing the Nazis to the Confederates?
    No, I was comparing neo nazi's & neo confederates, pretty certain that was quite clearly stated.
    ''I'm here to play an American Civil War era combat game, not Call of Duty with muskets.''.

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