View Poll Results: That do you think of my idea for Historical Company

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Thread: Historical company organization

  1. #21

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    Thanks for all who voted

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas aagaard View Post
    Got nothing to do with this war... the drill is different, the structure is different, the ranks is different...

    and to OP... the book you link to is a simplified version made recently and it is full of errors and and reenactorisms...

    By using the original sources you avoid mistakes like that.
    (almost) everything you can wish for can be found here: http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/links.htm


    Also you made a number of mistakes... because the book you used made them.
    The non-commissioned officers are not split like what you describe.

    The second sergeant is "opposite the second file from the left of the company" or when the company is uncovered on the left, he move up and is the company left guide.

    "The third sergeant, opposite the second file from the right of the second platoon."
    (quotes from "Hardee's revised")

    and so on.

    also the corporals are not ranked... they are, just like the privates "ranked" after their height.


    The company is a tactical and administrative unit.
    The platoons is something you define every time the men fall in... so not an administrative unit and it was rarely used for anything in the field.
    And the section even rare.. and they should in no way be compared to modern infantry squads... that would be very anachronistic.

    There are a few orders that involve doing things "by platoon" but there are no firing orders for it.


    ----


    If anyone want to read about the jobs for different ranks look in
    "CUSTOMS OF SERVICE FOR NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS AND SOLDIERS" by AUGUST V. KAUTZ

    This is the best place to start when we are taking ranks and the jobs each rank had to do.
    https://books.google.dk/books?id=jHg...page&q&f=false

    It is a union book, but most of it also works for the south... since most of their regulations are a direct copy of the US regulations.


    When we are talking the regular army infantry regiments. - each company had. (on paper)
    One First Sergeant. three Sergeants. and Four Corporals.

    but "295. Volunteer regiments of infantry differ from the above in having (...) four sergeants and eight corporals in each company."

    But this again depended on the specific regiment.

    It do not mention the number of privates... but newly raised regiments did usually number some 900-1000 men in total.
    But the numbers was much lower during the war. At Gettysburg the union infantry regiments averaged just 375 men.

    The south (and the union state of Wisconsin) was better at reinforcing existing regiments and was typical larger.

    -----

    the first sergeant.
    His job is described in the same book.

    But 1st sergeant is a rank and so is sergeant.

    Covering sergeant, orderly sergeant, 2nd sergeant, 3rd sergeant are jobs.
    The first two jobs are usually done by the 1st Sergeant. the other two positions done by the other sergeants.

    In combat the job of the covering sergeant was to cover the captain. (stand behind him) and in manĉuvres be the company right guide.
    when standing still he joined the line of file-closers... together with the other sergeants and the LTs.

    The captain mostly give orders when doing manĉuvres. For the firing most of it is ordered by the battalion commander.

    Out of combat the Orderly sergeant do the paperwork and is the one responsible for the drill in the company.
    so he is the main "teacher" in the company.


    For the formation just look in the early pages of the relevant drill book... it is one of the fist things they cover (Hardee's revised and/or Gilhalms for the CSA..
    And US. Infantry tactics 1861 for the North, and Chandler for Wisconsin regiments)

    Most of them can be found by following the link above.
    Yeah as a soldier in the current U.S. Army (we haven't changed much in regards to drill and ceremony) I was wondering what the hell a 2nd sergeant was.

    I'm wondering if I browse armypubs if I can pull up some old resources I'm allowed to distribute and share with you guys.

    Here is a spitball breakdown by someone who lives it.

    Company Commander (Captain) - Owns the company and everything in it.
    Lieutenants - I think they sign for stuff too idk they usually disappear to god knows where but yeah they have administrative responsibilities.
    1st Sergeant - The highest enlisted man in command. Makes the Captains orders a reality. Captain is like the Mother and 1st SGT is the Father.
    Sergeant First Class up to Master Sergeant - Usually in charge of sections / platoons.
    Sergeants and Staff Sergeants usually in charge of lower enlisted and ensuring tasks are completed.
    Corporal - a Junior NCO
    Private E1 Private E2 and Private First Class - The main driving force that is to be controlled by all them peeps previously mentioned.
    Last edited by Cube210; 12-19-2015 at 11:26 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Cube210 View Post
    Yeah as a soldier in the current U.S. Army (we haven't changed much in regards to drill and ceremony) I was wondering what the hell a 2nd sergeant was.

    I'm wondering if I browse armypubs if I can pull up some old resources I'm allowed to distribute and share with you guys.

    Here is a spitball breakdown by someone who lives it.

    Company Commander (Captain) - Owns the company and everything in it.
    Lieutenants - I think they sign for stuff too idk they usually disappear to god knows where but yeah they have administrative responsibilities.
    1st Sergeant - The highest enlisted man in command. Makes the Captains orders a reality. Captain is like the Mother and 1st SGT is the Father.
    Sergeant First Class up to Master Sergeant - Usually in charge of sections / platoons.
    Sergeants and Staff Sergeants usually in charge of lower enlisted and ensuring tasks are completed.
    Corporal - a Junior NCO
    Private E1 Private E2 and Private First Class - The main driving force that is to be controlled by all them peeps previously mentioned.
    Well, it's changed enough that half of the modern ranks you listed didn't exist back then. There weren't that many separate ranks for Privates or Sergeants.

  4. #24

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    Why do people keep writing about morden stuff that is not relevant???
    (in areas where we don't know about how it was back then, it do make sense... But when we got all the information we need it is really not relevant)

    This is the list of non commissioned officer ranks:
    1. Cadet and Medical Cadet.
    2. Sergeant Major.
    3. Regimental Quartermaster, and Commissary Sergeants.
    4. Ordnance Sergeants and Hospital Stewards.
    5. First Sergeant.
    6. Sergeants.
    7. Corporals.

    And only the last 3 where to be found in the infantry company together with the privates. (and LTs and the captain)

    Then there is a number of functions or jobs that might sound like a rank, but they are not.
    (orderly Sergeant, covering Sergeant, 2nd Sergeant, 3rd Sergeant... )
    Thomas Bernstorff Aagaard

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas aagaard View Post
    Why do people keep writing about morden stuff that is not relevant???
    (in areas where we don't know about how it was back then, it do make sense... But when we got all the information we need it is really not relevant)

    This is the list of non commissioned officer ranks:
    1. Cadet and Medical Cadet.
    2. Sergeant Major.
    3. Regimental Quartermaster, and Commissary Sergeants.
    4. Ordnance Sergeants and Hospital Stewards.
    5. First Sergeant.
    6. Sergeants.
    7. Corporals.

    And only the last 3 where to be found in the infantry company together with the privates. (and LTs and the captain)

    Then there is a number of functions or jobs that might sound like a rank, but they are not.
    (orderly Sergeant, covering Sergeant, 2nd Sergeant, 3rd Sergeant... )

    Might wanna relook over your history there man

  6. #26

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    How about you point out what you don't agree with and provid sources for you views.

    You used a error filled modern text as the basic for inventing a nonhistorical company structure.

    Read the early part of the relevant ORIGINAL drill book for the structure in combat.
    (Gilhams and "Hardee revised" for the south. US infantry tactics 1861 for union regiments or Chandler for wisconsin regiments... but the basic structure is the same)
    They all clearly give you how the company is organised during combat and it is very clear about were the individual non-commissioned officer and the officers are located. and when you read true school of the company and later battalion you learn who do what.

    Just to take one of your errors. The 2nd sergeant is not part of the 1st platoon but is the company left guide. (one thing the simplified drill book to attached do get right)


    Many of the other facts I wrote are from ""CUSTOMS OF SERVICE FOR NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICERS AND SOLDIERS" by AUGUST V. KAUTZ"
    (paragraph 301 got the list of non commissioned ranks)

    The structure of the infantry company is covered in his book on the company clerk.(§277 but based on Gen.Order No 126, 1862 and act of March 3, 1863 section 37)
    The infantry company got:
    1x captain, 1x 1st LT,1x 2nd LT, 1x 1st SG, 4x SGs, 8x CPLs, 2x musicians and 1x wagoner and 64-82 privates.
    (but many units got smaller with time)


    this is all union stuff, but since it is based on the army US regulations and the south copied the regulations it is the same for csa regiments.


    The 1861 US infantry tactics can be found here:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=80N...page&q&f=false

    Kautz NCOs
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2h616yv1s..._NCOs.pdf?dl=0

    Kauts The company clerk
    http://books.google.com/books?id=S2x...page&q&f=false
    Last edited by thomas aagaard; 01-13-2016 at 08:45 PM.
    Thomas Bernstorff Aagaard

  7. #27

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    Mine is all correct for some Confederate Regiments of 1862 for the Maryland Campaign All the ranks are all correct from the rosters of regiments I've looked at . Also Cadet and Medical Cadet were that was more of a military college rank Regimental Quartermaster was apart of the regiment not just in one company.


    Now as for this 1x captain, 1x 1st LT,1x 2nd LT, 1x 1st SG, 4x SGs, 8x CPLs, 2x musicians and 1x wagoner and 64-82 privates.
    that is more of a union chart of a smaller company. Yet for Confederate for a Company it would be 1x captain, 1x 1st LT,1x 2nd LT, 1x 1st SG, 4x SGs, 8x CPLs, then 32 Pvt

    Now as for when you said ''Just to take one of your errors. The 2nd sergeant is not part of the 1st platoon but is the company left guide. (one thing the simplified drill book to attached do get right'' That your correct on I fixed that
    Last edited by RhettVito; 01-13-2016 at 09:17 PM.

  8. #28

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    At no point have i said that the cadet and medical cadets where part of a company.
    The list is was a reply to Cube210, who startet to bring a lot of modern ranks into the debate.
    It lists the ranking of the non-commission officers. So the cadet was a higher rank than a 1st sergeant.
    The list do not in any way represent who is in the infantry company and I very clearly state that only the last 3 can be found in the infantry company.


    And you can find a number of posts in another topic where I try get other people to understand that the Quartermaster sergeant was not a company rank in the infantry, so no argument there.


    32 privates are way to few for the correct paper/regulation strength of a company.
    I can see you have started to edit your original post...

    The captain and the 1st SG was not part of the 1st platoon,but standing to the right of it.
    The 1st LT is not part of the 1st platoon, but standing behind the 4th section.
    the 2nbd Lt was behind the 1st platoon.
    and so on... what you list is not correct. Please, just look it up in the relevant drill book it is clearly described in the early part.
    Hardee's revised can be found here:
    http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/Drill/sob.htm

    And to quote him:
    12. The company officers and sergeants are nine in number, and will be posted in the following manner :
    13. The captain on the right of the company touching with the left elbow.
    14. The first sergeant in the rear rank, touching with the left elbow and covering the captain. In the manoeuvres he will be denominated covering sergeant, or right guide of the company.
    15. The remaining officers and sergeants will be posted as file-closers, and two paces behind the rear rank.
    16. The first lieutenant, opposite the centre of the fourth section.
    17. The second lieutenant, opposite the centre of the first platoon.
    18. The third lieutenant, opposite the centre of the second platoon.
    19. The second sergeant, opposite the second file from the left of the company. In the manoeuvres he will be designated left guide of the company.
    20. The third sergeant, opposite the second file from the right of the second platoon.
    21. The fourth sergeant, opposite the second file from the left of the first platoon.
    22. The fifth sergeant, opposite the second file from the right of the first platoon.
    23. In the left or tenth company of the battalion, the second sergeant will be posted in the front rank and on the left of the battalion.
    24. The corporals will be posted in the front rank, as prescribed in No. 8.
    25. Absent officers and sergeants will be replaced—officers by sergeants, and sergeants by corporals. The colonel may detach a first lieutenant from one company to command another, of which both the captain and first lieutenant are absent ; but this authority will give no right to a lieutenant to demand to be so detached.

    The pdf you link to is a text made in 1985 by some reenactor who decided that it was too hard for his men to read the primary sources for them self.

    the smaller company he describes makes great sense for a reenactment, but is simply not the correct size compared to the structure found in the regulations... north or south.
    Last edited by thomas aagaard; 01-13-2016 at 09:42 PM.
    Thomas Bernstorff Aagaard

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas aagaard View Post
    At no point have i said that the cadet and medical cadets where part of a company.
    The list is was a reply to Cube210, who startet to bring a lot of modern ranks into the debate.
    It lists the ranking of the non-commission officers. So the cadet was a higher rank than a 1st sergeant.
    The list do not in any way represent who is in the infantry company and I very clearly state that only the last 3 can be found in the infantry company.


    And you can find a number of posts in another topic where I try get other people to understand that the Quartermaster sergeant was not a company rank in the infantry, so no argument there.


    32 privates are way to few for the correct paper/regulation strength of a company.
    I can see you have started to edit your original post...

    The captain and the 1st SG was not part of the 1st platoon,but standing to the right of it.
    The 1st LT is not part of the 1st platoon, but standing behind the 4th section.
    the 2nbd Lt was behind the 1st platoon.
    and so on... what you list is not correct. Please, just look it up in the relevant drill book it is clearly described in the early part.
    Hardee's revised can be found here:
    http://www.zipcon.net/~silas/Drill/sob.htm

    And to quote him:



    The pdf you attached is still a text made in the 1990ties by some reenactor who decided that it was too hard for his men to read the primary sources for them self.

    the smaller company he describes makes great sense for a reenactment, but is simply not the correct size compared to the structure found in the regulations... north or south.
    The company size I use is the more of a Confederate size yet on paper when they did the roster they didn't really put Platoon it was more of just the full company listed how I had it all in order from 1st-5th Sgt and 1st-8thCpl
    Now as for the Cpt and 1St Sgt they were to the right of the company in a line if looked at on paper from a drill guide yet in battle the Cpt and 1st Sgt would be behind the line of battle the size is correct for some confederate regiments for the battle as for union not alot
    Last edited by RhettVito; 01-13-2016 at 09:55 PM.

  10. #30

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    Watch this I am right for the company number you said ''32 privates are way to few for the correct paper/regulation strength of a company''. Watch the video thank you.



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